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Christian Fiction and “The New Edgy”

So a while back, I joined a group for lovers of “edgy Christian fiction.” But I was disappointed. You see, unless you were a nun, a schoolmarm, or Mrs. Grundythe group really wasn’t very edgy.

That’s when it hit me: The term “edgy” means different things for different people.

Take last month’s “conversation” regarding author Eric Wilson’s challenge to readers and writers of Christian fiction. My post at Novel Journey garnered not a few comments, one of which was from literary agent Chip MacGregor. For the record, I enjoy Chip’s blog and appreciate his candor. Nevertheless, I was underwhelmed by his comments regarding that post and replied:

“…as one who reads both CBA and general market books, I just haven’t found these ‘edgy’ CBA books people keep talking about. (And if someone cites Francine Rivers again in this regard, I’m gonna kick my dog.) You say, ‘The fact is, the market calls for both edgy AND safe books. CBA provides both.’ I dunno. These books might be ‘edgy’ in relation to CBA standards, but as someone who works in the construction field and reads pretty widely, they really aren’t. “

Chip responded:

“Francine – edgy? Ha! I love Francine, but she’s not what I’d consider edgy. A selection: Read Lisa Samson, Charles Martin, Gina Holmes, Claudia Mair Burney, Stephen James, Mary DeMuth, Mark Bertrand’s “Back on Murder.” That should get you started.”

Uh, well… I have read some of those authors, and know others who’ve read the rest. The consensus? NOT EDGY.  Don’t misunderstand me. This is not meant to suggest that those novelists aren’t excellent writers. They are! But if those authors are representative of the best in “edgy” Christian fiction, then my contention stands. When Christians talk about “edgy” fiction, they mean two different things.

Which is why my “edgy” is your “obscene.”

To be “edgy,” there must be an “edge,” a “boundary,” a “demarcation.” In that sense, the term “edgy Christian fiction” reaffirms our “boundaries.” But in order to really be “edgy,” a Christian novel must push — even cross — those boundaries. Problem is, they don’t.

The Christian books that deal with “edgy” topics — rape, incest, adultery, addiction, lust, etc. — do so behind a scrim of safety. In other words, you can write a book about rape. You just can’t be explicit. You can write a book about a foul-mouthed racist. You just can’t actually show him being a foul-mouthed racist. You can write a book about a conflicted porn star. Just spare us the specifics.

We are taught as writers to SHOW not TELL. But if you’re a Christian author, that doesn’t always apply. You see, SHOWING certain things can get you into trouble. We don’t need to know what specific female body part your antagonist is staring at. We don’t need to hear the epithets being hurled at the black boy. We don’t need to see the drunken father actually touching his daughter in the tool shed. Apparently, TELLING has its advantages. In this way, “Edgy” Christian fiction has come to mean writing ABOUT difficult subjects, without actually going into detail.

That’s the “new edgy.”

Hey, everyone has to draw a line somewhere. Some people just draw the line at different places. The Christian publishing industry happens to draw the line more conservatively than my tastes. Heck, a lot of people do.

But as someone who spent 11 years in the ministry, I think our PG worldview is flat outta touch.  For instance, once I counseled a man who had committed bestiality. How does one approach a situation like that? Or do we just never talk about it? Another man was addicted to masturbation, to the point where he bloodied himself. Then there was a woman who performed weird sexual rituals for her husband. She was a new Christian and he threatened to shoot her if she stopped. Along the way, there were drug addicts, self-mutilators, incest victims, and serial adulterers. And the list goes on. The funny thing is, the average church-goer had no idea.  And would rather keep it that way.

Which is probably why the “new edgy” just seems so… tame.

To my wife, a steak with any trace of pink in it is “raw.” To me, the bloodier the better. Likewise, to some readers of Christian fiction, any trace of language or sex is “edgy.” But to me, if it’s not “raw,” it’s over-cooked.

* * *

So do you think some Christian fiction is genuinely “edgy”? Do you agree that the term is relative? Do you think Christian fiction can get any “edgier” and still remain “Christian”? And do you think it’s possible to remain true to a story without sometimes showing explicit elements?

{ 94 comments… add one }
  • Susanne Lakin August 31, 2010, 11:00 AM

    I think we’re dealing with two things. There are edgy topics–like the ones mentioned, that are often taboo in CBA. But just because a writer talks about these topics doesn’t make the writing or book edgy. It’s the treatment that defines that to me. I’ve seen some Christian books tackle “edgy ” topics in a sterile pat way that “un-edgifies” them (yes, I just made up that word) and some have offended me by their manner of handling (such as abortion, but I won’t mention titles as I’ll get curcified here). Then there is the edginess that comes through in the style and sturcture of the book. I consider my new release, Somone to Blame a bit edgy for that reason. It leans more toward post-modern because I don’t present easy, pat answers for the tragedies of life. I have gritty characters who do vile things as sympathetic, for I feel we all are sinners and even god sees the potential in those we might classify as evil or unredeemable. It’s a good discussion and tend to avoid calling anything edgy. I admire writers who can appraoch touchy subjects with authenticity and honesty, and that’s what I look for. I don’t want to read edgy to be rattled by controversy. Hope this makes sense. And if anyone would like to give my novel a try and see if it’s edgy enough for them, check out http://www.someonetoblame.com

    • Mike Duran September 1, 2010, 6:44 PM

      Yes, Susanne, in relation to the current Christian market I think an unorthodox story style could constitute something edgy (perhaps “nontraditional” would simply be a better phrase), and portraying a “vile” character in a sympathetic light could also push the boundaries of what is currently the norm. For me, however, a genuinely edgy Christian novel would be one that challenged the traditional taboos against showing sex and language. Thanks for visiting and congrats on your book!

  • J. Mark Bertrand September 1, 2010, 9:29 AM

    What? I’m not edgy? This might explain why I still have to use a knife to cut bread. Maybe someday.

    The only thing I question here, Mike, is that line: “my edgy is your obscene.” I don’t doubt that what you have in mind would be classified as obscene by some … but you don’t really think of that as edgy, do you? It would take more in your book than an honestly reported construction site conversation to merit that tag, I suspect.

    If you can remember back a few years, I once attempted a descriptive chart of “edginess” based on the show/tell spectrum, mainly because I enjoyed the irony of tweaking people so committed to the rules with such an obvious exception to them. Nothing is edgy apart from context. Will Smith, in Fresh Prince days, could come off as edgy by wearing his school blazer inside out … but merely possessing a school blazer would take the edge off in most contexts. The same with books. You’d have to go pretty far afield, out past American Psycho territory, to own that label in any real sense … and I’m not sure it would be a label worth pursuing for its own sake. (Though the label I’ve been getting is “gritty,” which I take to be Edgy 2.0.)

    What I value above any notion of edginess is creativity and artistic risk. I like to see authors rise to a technical challenge, to give a bravura performance on the page. If you can deliver that, you’re golden. If not, no amount of low level transgressiveness can save you.

    • Mike Duran September 1, 2010, 7:05 PM

      Sorry, Mark. “Gritty” suits you better anyway. While I get your point about “context” determining what is edgy, I think Christians and nonChristians approach edgy differently. For the “secular” reader or film-goer, what they call edgy we call “evil,” “over-the-top” or “vile.” We Christians bring a different set of “edgy” standards… like thou shalt not say “shit.” So I think the “context” issue has as much to do with our current publishing milieu as it does with the particular stories we are telling. And if it helps, I don’t think of myself as edgy. I’m abrasive.

      • Kaci September 3, 2010, 4:47 PM

        And if it helps, I don’t think of myself as edgy. I’m abrasive.

        I’m sorry. That line is awesome.

  • Frank Creed September 1, 2010, 3:28 PM

    I came across this edgy Christian fiction concept a few years ago and, at the time, liked its potential as a description of what many people were writing. I figured that the fact that science fiction and fantasy was/ is not widely accepted in the CBA Christian fiction market rendered the genre _edgy_.

    There is no all-encompassing definition of edgy Christian fiction. To paraphrase what I said in a 2008 article, edgy is a connotative adjective and the manner in which it is employed is determined by one’s experiences with and expectations for fiction.

    I do believe that edgy CF does exist, but that the concept has evolved over time. For example, at the time of its release, Ted Dekker’s Thr3e was considered way out there. By the time I read it, a few years later, I was disappointed in his action scenes–the threats of violence, for instance, never come to fruition. Tension was high as conflict loomed, but by the end of the book the reader is tired of waiting for action to happen.

    What once was considered edgy no longer fits today’s description.

    From the blurbs I’ve read of Michelle Sutton’s novels, they certainly appear to qualify as edgy.

    I also think that Eric Wilson’s _Field of Blood_ is edgy. Wilson never shies from showing the grit in this novel. No threats, just action.

    Heck, I’ve even had readers tell me that my writing is edgy–in fact, too edgy for a Christian novelist (I think they meant gritty, but whatever).

    Perhaps edgy should be defined in terms of the market to which the novel is meant to appeal.

  • Rebecca LuElla Miller September 3, 2010, 5:17 PM

    Seems like “edgy” is being resurrected after it faded away some years ago. Back in 2006 I went on a bit of a rant against its use in regard to Christian fiction. Here’s a sample from one post:

    I have developed quite a resistance to the notion that Christians should write “edgy” fiction, primarily because I think Christians use the word to mean one thing when the world uses it to mean something quite different. This redefining of terms with a Christian slant is, in my opinion, more of the “Christian-ese” that fiction writers are so often accused of.

    You go, Mike! 😉

    Becky

    • Headless Unicorn Guy September 5, 2010, 11:04 AM

      In case anybody hasn’t heard the joke definition, here it is:

      “EDGY (TM) Christian Fiction is where the Pious Polly Purebread heroine Actually Takes Off Her Bonnet at the end.”

  • Rebecca LuElla Miller September 3, 2010, 5:59 PM

    If anyone is interested you can see the entire discussion Mark Bertrand started about “edgy” Christian fiction (along with my objection to the term 😉 at FIF and my specific rant about the term here.

    Becky

  • Andy September 4, 2010, 7:13 AM

    Perhaps this goes without saying… but if a Christian writer writes starts writing “edgy” Christian fiction (of the kind this post seems to refer), isn’t it more likely that Christian fiction publishers would just deem it NOT “Christian fiction”. Then it ends up as a Christian writer writing fiction and no “Christian” publishing terms attached.

    Is fiction “Christian” just because the writer is Christian and they include some of their world-view within their writing, or is there some standard by which they cannot include certain content in order to be considered “Christian Fiction”… Who decides that but the publishers? I (as a Christian) could write anything I want and call it “Christian fiction”, but if a Christian publisher disagrees- it’s not.

    I guess I just don’t understand where the boarders of Christian fiction are in the first place and who decides them. It seems to me that it just depends on what kind of reader the writer is writing for… Christians or not.

    • Mike Duran September 4, 2010, 10:28 AM

      Well, I think you’re illustrating my point here, Andy. The issue is “Who’s defining what Christian Fiction is?” As I mentioned in one of the above comments, the Christian fiction market consists of 80% women’s fiction. The predominant demographic is white, middle-aged, conservative evangelicals. Apparently, this 80% sets the “tone” for the other 20%. So if we use the industry’s standard, the primary determinants of what makes a work “Christian” is some combination of the following: (1) A clear faith element, (2) A Christian character, (3) Adherence to industry guidelines (non-explicit language or sex. ) I am free to call anything “Christian fiction.” But what the industry and the market deem “Christian” is another story. Hey, thanks so much for visiting, Andy!

  • Michelle Sutton September 4, 2010, 10:11 AM

    Andy,

    This is where it gets tricky. Even though Sheaf House is a Christian publisher, my two YA books (It’s Not About Me and It’s Not About Him) always get stocked with the secular teen fiction. That’s where I find them when I see them in stores. I have no clue why that is. But when I tried to sell my adultery story to some big NY publishers they liked the story but because of the faith thread they referred my agent to their Christian division (most NY pubs have them now) and the Christian branches of the publisher said they couldn’t buy a book with sinning it in (like adultery) so it was a real catch 22. I can’t take Jesus out because the sinning character is a Christian who is making some bad choices and that is a huge part of the internal conflict. So it’s hard to place them on both the author’s side and on the publisher’s side. Believe me, I’ve gone both ways and it’s always the same…

    • Andy September 4, 2010, 1:19 PM

      Thanks for the responses Mike and Michelle, there’s a lot to think about here.

      I also wanted to mention: I discovered your blog a month or so ago, and it’s one of the few (of too many) in my reader that regularly posts things worth reading! You always give me much food for thought and I have often ended up sharing things from your blog with my Christian book study group. Thanks!

  • Sherry Thompson September 4, 2010, 11:17 AM

    I have two Christian fantasy books in publication, Seabird & Earthbow, which were too edgy for the usual Christian publishers whose books are stocked in Family Christian Bookstores.

    In my case, some of my protagonists or main characters are not Christians–at least at the beginning of the story–and therefore do acts that they will later regret. And which is some cases would never be in a regular Christian novel.

    In addition, my villains aren’t sanitized, i.e. acting almost like Christians. Finally, I do show violence since there’s a war on, but I try hard not to show anything too graphic or gratuitous. I push the edge on one brief romantic scene in Earthbow.

    Back before either books was published, Seabird won 3rd in the Genesis Contest, sponsored by the American Christian Fiction Writers. I tried every agent and most of the publishers who were headed to the ACFW conference that year. None of them would touch my manuscript. At the same time, I had no luck with secular agents. I don’t know but some may have objected to the Christian characters & content.

    The only reason that Seabird & Earthbow were ever published was because of a start-up indie press, Gryphonwood. Other small indie Christian presses are taking up the slack when it comes to publishing Christian fiction with any kind of edginess to it–i.e. Christian fiction where the characters and situations actually resemble reality. Just for two examples, see March Lord and Splashdown.

    My books mostly sell at Amazon, B&N, and Smashwords, where they are largely treated as “secular” except by many of the reviewers. I’ve managed to get Seabird into two local bookstores, where they are shelved with regular speculative fiction. I haven’t tried to get them into a Christian bookstore, because I’m quite sure they would not be accepted. You see, they’re not published by one of the “established” Christian publishers.
    I am convinced that Christian indie is the wave of the future. As for the writers of such manuscript, you might be interested in the Lost Genre Guild.

  • Greg Mitchell September 4, 2010, 4:00 PM

    I dunno. The whole topic bothers me and I’m trying to think of why. I’ll give it a shot:

    First–define “edgy”. As many better writers on here have said, “edgy” is completely relative. I think “Friday the 13th” is funny. My mom thinks Friday the 13th was farted out of hell. So there. Actually, the fact that I just wrote “fart” is probably edgy to my mother. But that’s not what bothers me. One man’s edgy is Mike Duran’s leisurely Sunday nap.

    At the end of the day, it’s just another label and I feel burdened by labels enough as it is. If the dissent comes from feeling that non-Amish-loving people are sorely under-represented in the CBA, okay. That’s just facts. We’re a group that doesn’t get our entertainment needs met. I am with you 100%. As a writer in the Christian film market, I’ve said the same thing over in that neighborhood for over a decade. I AM the guy who likes monsters. And there are no Christian produced movies about monsters–and I mean good, gnarly, slimy, Stan Winston-style monsters. Growing up, save for Frank Peretti, there were no CBA books about monsters–and even his were a bit lighter on the monster side than I liked. Dude, I want “The Monster Squad” with a message of hope in Christ. That’s what I want. I never saw that in CBA–not saying it’s not there, I’m just saying I personally didn’t see it sitting on a shelf in front of me. So, naturally, I WROTE it. Now the book’s sitting in a CBA house, ready to hit the shelves, giving some ten year old kid like me something to read on a Saturday afternoon. That’s groovy to me.

    But my meager attempt at bringing some “monster matinee” to the CBA might not be considered “edgy enough” to some and I think that’s where my problem with these kinds of conversations rests. Maybe I’m just taking it wrong, but it seems that the conversation (not here, perhaps, but other places I’ve seen it) changes from “Aw, man, there’s nothing in the CBA market that speaks to me personally” to “you’re not edgy enough, loser. You’re afraid to take chances, you CBA-whipped mama’s boy” (an exaggeration, but you get the point). Then it becomes about impressing people–“See! I’m edgy! I had a guy get his face ripped off! Doesn’t that make me edgy? Please approve of my edginess!”. I’ve defended my writing since I’ve begun, to almost everyone (yes, including my mother). I don’t need one more person to defend it to. I set out to write “The Coming Evil” for my not-so-silent-inner adolescent, and if it falls in the category of “edgy” for some folks so be it. It’s gonna be tame to some on here because I don’t have full frontal and an f-bomb raid, but it might still have relevance. It might still hold some worth.

    It’s a complaint I hear in the horror world all the time. “What?! It’s rated PG-13?! Aw, man, that movie’s gonna suck! A horror movie’s only good if it’s rated R!!” Being Rated R doesn’t make something good. Being good makes something good–which I know you agree with, Mike. Not leveling at you, just a general eye-rolling at the sentiment held by the “if it’s not R it’s crap” crowd.

    Maybe it’s all in my head. I’m ate up with fear that people won’t approve of my writing. I still write what I want to write *anyway*, but I worry afterwards if anyone’s gonna like it. I feel like I’ve overcome a pretty big hurdle getting a monster book–with real, flesh-eating monsters that are not zombies or sparkly vampires–into the CBA, but now the hurdle is it’s not graphic enough for the “Edgy Christian Fiction Reader”? It’s not raw enough? I’m not against “the edgy”, I just think, if we’re not careful, that becomes the goal–or a measuring stick used to judge its merit–rather than the natural progression of the story.

    Anyway. I think there was a point in there somewhere. Rant over. Soap box going back into storage. :p

  • Rebecca LuElla Miller September 4, 2010, 4:39 PM

    One more plea. Can we please stop calling stories that push against Biblical or traditional Christian ethics and morality “edgy.” Words have meaning. If someone outside the Christian community read that a particular story was “edgy,” they’d expect to find something that pushed to the edge of society at large, not a subset of society. We might as well call an Amish story that had the character decide not to wear her prayer covering “edgy,” because it would be to that subset of society. To society at large, it would be laughable. That’s exactly what Christian writers who proclaim their fiction “edgy” are setting themselves up for.

    Becky

  • Robert Treskillard September 5, 2010, 4:01 AM

    I wrote an article last year on “What is Christian Fantasy: A Definition and a Challenge”. While I don’t get directly into the “edgy” issue, I do touch on it, and while I am focused on “fantasy”, what I say applies to fiction in general.

    http://www.epictales.org/blog/robertblog.php/2010/08/05/what-is-christian-fantasy

    Any comments are welcome!

    -Robert

  • Headless Unicorn Guy September 5, 2010, 11:06 AM

    But as someone who spent 11 years in the ministry, I think our PG worldview is flat outta touch.

    PG? More like Hard G — in Christianese, PG is Too Edgy.

  • R. L. Copple September 6, 2010, 9:36 AM

    “Edgy” depends on the audience you’re targeting. It is an overused term, but I think for Christians it tends to mean “anything the CBA won’t accept.” So using a cuss word, or even hinting that two people might have had sex is “edgy.” But as a Christian writer, if your intended audience is teens in the general market, an occasional cuss word would not only not be edgy, but boarding on unrealistic for some of them.

    Then there is just accounting for people’s tastes. Personally, I don’t like cussing in my movies and books. To me, because of where I come from, it feels unreal to me. I don’t hear people cussing up a storm very often. I do hear a cuss word every once in a while, and I’m surrounded by professing Christians at work. It’s funny, though, because if they hear me say what they thing is a cuss word, they are shocked. Just the other day, I said, “What the….” but didn’t add on the next word, just that much of the phrase. And one of them, who tends to cuss occasionally but not often, said, “What did you say?” It’s because they never hear me cuss and they know I used to be a pastor. Even hinting at a cuss word by me they would consider “edgy” even though they fully accept it in their own lives.

    As far as the CBA goes, my books go beyond edgy. I guess in that market, I’ve totally leaped off the cliff. But my intention with this book about to come out isn’t so much to reach them, as it is to reach older teens who deal with sexual situations in many cases, or contemplate it. So many, including Christian teens, lose their virginity so early in life, and usually not through marriage, that I felt they needed to have a protagonist who struggled with those questions. And my plot required, at one point, taking her right up before the act, because something happens at that point that totally changes the direction of the story. That required showing everything leading up to that.

    I had two lines to balance there. One, I didn’t want to be anymore tantalizing than I had to be. Two, I wanted to show it realistically, the desire, the passion, otherwise any teen reading it would automatically reject it as unreal, not what they experience. And of course, not everyone is going to be comfortable or happy with where I drew that line. But I felt it was necessary to show that.

    Earlier in the book, a married couple do have sex, and at a certain point, I do the break away when it’s obvious where it’s headed. I had no reason to show that, but I did need to let the reader understand that it was happening, and in the situation I had, it would have been totally unrealistic if they didn’t think about and want to do that. But I know that by CBA standards, that alone, not to mention the former, would be way too “edgy” for them. But if we are to witness to the other audience, the world, about Christian values, we have to show what is realistic in their world.

    I would also like to point out about the Bible being an R rated book. Really it’s not. It’s more of a PG-13 book. Yes, it doesn’t hide from the reality of life, in that it mentions all the sins done by man and woman. But it rarely if ever *shows* any graphic details that would make it R rated. It doesn’t give us detailed, passionate, accounts of those acts. So it really isn’t R rated.

    But I would agree, if Hollywood were to get a hold of those stories, they’d probably make them R rated on the screen. But that’s quite different than the Bible being R rated itself. Naturally its purpose is a bit different from a novel fiction story. It’s purpose isn’t to immerse the reader into a alternate world, it is to speak to my life directly. So there’s no need to “show” all that. It would distract from the purpose. It’s not trying to entertain us like our stories should be doing.

    Some good comments in here as we deal with this. Thanks, Mike.

  • Rebecca LuElla Miller September 6, 2010, 10:51 AM

    Rick, good comments. One of your last sentences struck me (happy to say, there’s no evidence that it left a concussion, though. 😆 ): [The Bible’s] not trying to entertain us like our stories should be doing. Since much of what you talked about was sex, I had to wonder just how much we should want to entertain our readers with sex.

    I, like you, am aiming to address some prevailing attitudes about promiscuity. It’s not easy.

    I’ve read a book or two that seem to have the same goal, but I thought they crossed the line into entertaining, not-quite sex—a la Stephenie Meyers, I suppose. Lots of lust and making out. Just no bedroom scenes. Is this the direction we want to go? (And no, this is not “edgy” by our culture’s standards. I’m just not so sure we should worry about our culture’s standards as much as we should pay attention to God’s standards. [Now that was a loaded statement. 😉 ])

    Becky

    • R. L. Copple September 6, 2010, 1:20 PM

      Becky,

      Yes, pretty loaded. 🙂

      Naturally I would agree that we don’t want to only entertain, no matter *how* that gets accomplished. And though some might consider that scene I wrote “soft porn” to a degree because I show the passion of the moment, I’m certainly not looking to entertain through lust and such. I’m only showing it because I have to in order for the plot to work, and if I don’t make it realistic enough, anyone reading it will dismiss it. By secular standards, it’s pretty non-edgy. But by CBA standards, I’m way out there. And I agree with the sentiments that as a Christian writer, I’m not going by what is culturally acceptable.

      That said, if we write fiction, the first goal has to be to entertain. That doesn’t preclude more foundational and underlying goals which are more important to inform and dictate how that comes about, but the truth is, if our story doesn’t entertain, it accomplishes two things. One, we will not reach very many, if any, with the underlying message. Two, the lack of good story-telling will not glorify God, which too often happens in a lot of Christian fiction. I know you would agree with those, not saying them because I think you don’t, but to set the stage for what I’m about to say.

      Good storytelling involves creating tension and resolution. In Christian storytelling, that frequently means showing sin and its consequences, and the repentance from that sin, and restoration, in some form or fashion. The issue is, effectively keep the reader in the story, i.e., entertained, means showing that building tension, whatever that sin is. How far is too far?

      We wouldn’t want to do a story where the underlying issue is how hate and unforgiveness can destroy a life, and fail to show a person hating another in all its ugliness. I bet we could find some CBA books that do a good job of showing that sin. And it would hurt the entertainment value, the building of tension, to only tell that, and not show the ugliness. The resolution wouldn’t be as powerful.

      The end result for me as a writer, and this will vary from writer to writer as well, is that I feel I show of that sin only what I have to show for the plot to work and be realistic enough that the resolution will have as equally a profound affect. Show any more than that, and it becomes gratuitous, put there to entice and such, which is not what a Christian should be doing to write it.

      I honestly didn’t ever thing I would write such a scene, as I intended never to tackle something along the lines of prostitution, for instance. And I believe we also need to have those in our stories who are doing the right thing. Not some goodie, perfect, protagonist, but do demonstrate among the people messing up, that some do get it right. For that to be realistic, that needs to be there as well.

      But this plot sort of fell into my lap, and actually my daughter was going through some things similar, so I guess it was in the back of my mind. I don’t expect this book to convince anyone necessarily, but I hope it will make people tempted or in the midst of such sin to take a second look, a different perspective, and consider what they are doing to themselves and others. Whether it accomplishes that, I don’t know. But that will be in God’s hands. All I can do is tell the story.

      So I guess that was a long way to say, we entertain by telling a story where we have emotional tension built up, and then resolved. The Christian part of that is in showing what directions that tension gets resolved in. Show only what has to be shown to make the sin, evil, darkness, “real” to the reader, to build up for that tension.

  • Mike Duran September 6, 2010, 11:33 AM

    Becky, I agree with your point about not using “our culture’s standards” as the judge of what’s edgy. But I think you’re mistaken to suggest that Christian fiction is necessarily being constrained by “God’s standards.” The Christian fiction industry says “Thou shalt not show sex and language.” However, SHOWING someone violating “God’s standards” (as the Bible often does) can be a tool for reinforcing those standards. I think we should be careful pitting the “culture’s standards” against “God’s standards.” In reality, when it comes to Christian fiction, we are dealing with neither. It’s “Christian culture’s standards” that have produced the taboos that frame “edgy.” We should not interpret “God’s standards” for how we should live as “God’s standards” for what we should write. The command to “Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth” (Eph. 4:29) applies to me as a person, but not necessarily my characters.

    • Nickolaus Pacione August 7, 2015, 12:34 PM

      I never really penned for Christian culture but if they are waiting to go down the rabbit hole they will know where to find me but I was doing what you guys did for years. I wrote of ghoulish subject matter addressing real issues (and scaring a shit ton along the way.) The Bible has traits of an R-Rated book but like what you said it’s PG-13 but the King James Only Movement we need to realize the nightmare they are as much as they are eager to share their faith. Though I will say it’s more Twilight Zone than Christianity.

  • Michelle Sutton September 6, 2010, 12:30 PM

    Great comment, Mike. Here is a good example. One college freshman read my book It’s Not About Me and said that she had planned to wait until marriage, but after reading this story she was more convinced than ever that she was doing the right thing by waiting. So it reinforced that value. I find it weird that Christians will think that reading about something edgy will want to make teens go out and sin. I don’t think adults give teens enough credit. How about writing a story about someone messing up, but showing the consequences in such as way as to be realistic so the teen can see the story as if it’s playing out for them. Then they will have their values reinforced, not corrupted. Ironically there were a few parents of home schooled teens who didn’t think their kids could handle the reality of my second book in the series, but when a junior in a secular high school won the book and posted a review, she referred to it as a sweet story. Apparently because I didn’t have the F word it in and sicko things happening it was a sweet story. Who’d a thought… It’s all in the eyes of the reader anyway. That’s what I see based on my feedback so far. And honestly, teens are not as clueless as their parents think, so why not give them a story with godly values tucked in the pages while delivering a compelling story at the same time. Maybe it will help some teens prevent those mistakes in their own lives.

  • Rebecca LuElla Miller September 6, 2010, 12:49 PM

    Hi, Mike.

    Just to clarify—I don’t think the Christian fiction industry is constrained by God’s standards. I think primarily, as it is now, “what sells to our target market” is what constrains Christian fiction.

    I think what should constrain the Christian writer is God’s standards (whether writing for the general market or for the Christian market), and of course that’s not something easy to determine. I hope, though, that this is the issue we Christian writers wrestle with, not with how much sex can I show to entertain my readers and still be published by a Christian house?

    Becky

    • Mike Duran September 6, 2010, 2:06 PM

      Thanks for clarifying, Becky. You’re right, determining God’s standards for the individual Christian author is most important. As with all personal standards, we must be careful to not superimpose them on others. Market “standards” are another thing. I will say this: Any Christian author who shows sex simply to “entertain” is probably veering from anything substantially “Christian.”

  • Beth Steury September 29, 2010, 9:34 PM

    Really glad I stumbled upon this “conversation”….. I can identify with so many of the sentiments contained in the posts above. My thoughts center around this — the world never misses an opportunity to discuss issues of a “mature subject matter”…. and neither should Christians. Oh, we can pretend sticky, touchy, iffy situations and issues don’t exist, but if we do, our message will be ineffective and the labels “irrelevant” and “out of touch” will fit perfectly! Sin and it’s consequences are a reality. So are difficult decisions. We know the TRUTH and we owe it to mankind to effectively pass it along. And fiction is an incredible tool by which to spread that TRUTH.

    I’ve written a YA novel that most likely fits the “edgy” fiction category as it deals frankly with abstinence and what I like to call “second chance” virginity. If you think Christian teens–those actively seeking a relationship with Christ AND those who just think they are Christian– aren’t having sex or participating in sexual acts, think again. My novel portrays a 17 year old guy who would do anything to turn back the clock to forever erase his past….. a past that’s been forgiven but continues to haunt his present…. and will make appearances in his future as well. The story is God’s–I just put the words onto paper. Test readers have said “very believable”, “great characters”, “excellent”; now I just have to find a publisher who agrees!

  • Michelle Sutton September 29, 2010, 9:50 PM

    Beth, sounds like you and I write similar things and think similar thoughts as I think. 🙂 I’ve sort of touched some of those areas in two of my books and honestly, it was a tough sell even though teens (Christian and non-Christian alike) loved the stories. Right now I am trying to steer a bit away from edgy as it describes me because I am really more about reaching hurting people who need realistic fiction in order to relate to the characters and hear the message of hope and second chances. Yeah, I’ve been described as writing the edgiest edgy fiction, but since that doesn’t really show my heart, I’m refocusing my efforts to share more about healing hearts and less about the fact that some of the content in my books might make your eyebrows disappear into your hairline.

  • Beth Steury September 29, 2010, 10:39 PM

    Michelle
    I have and have read It’s Not About Me…. have not read the 2nd book. It definitely spoke to the passion in teenaged romances…… they are thinking about it and doing it more than most adults want to believe!

    I am passionate about youth and abstinence in particular. SO MANY teens completely mess up their lives by the their sexual involvement before marriage. And SO many, after they “slip-up” adopt the attitude “I’ve already done it…. so what does it matter anymore?” repeatedly exposing themselves to more baggage and heartache not to mention pregnancy and disease. I also truly believe in mentoring and accountability–both are heavy themes in my novel. As is God’s amazing life transforming power and forgiveness. I honestly love how the story came together and how it is NOT just about teenagers and sex.

    I don’t want to write or be considered “edgy” just for the sake of edginess….. I just want to be relevant, realistic and good enough that my stories are readable and enjoyed enough to be effective.

  • Michelle Sutton September 30, 2010, 6:41 AM

    Beth, send me an email at michelle@michellesutton.net and I can give you a spot on my new blog to talk about your passion for this subject. 🙂

  • Carl Halling October 13, 2010, 5:43 AM

    Mike; everyone; this is an intriguing article from an intriguing site, and got me thinking about the boundaries of Christian writing; mind you…I’d been thinking of these for some time I became a Christian relatively late, and my 37 years in the world were pretty racy! I have written a lot about them, including memoirs. Just recently I started fictionalising aspects of my past. Much of what I write though is heavily sanitised compared to how things actually were. I often wonder if this is dishonest. Also, I’m writing from recollection, including dialogue; is this dishonest? After all, I have no way of recalling the exact situations or exact dialogue: Am I mingling truth and fact? Is this dishonest? Or am I being legalistic? I also sometimes reproduce things I wrote before becoming a Christian, and some of this is really edgy! Although even at that, it’s been sanitised. Indeed, most of my pre-Christian writings and music were destroyed. But I do it to illustrate a kind of before and after type of thing. I’m conflicted about it all though: is it really necessary to dredge up aspects of my pre-salvation self? I’ve so many questions and dilemmas about being a Christian writer; I never know if I’m doing the right thing; and sometimes I feel like giving up altogether and doing something else. Any insights? (smile)

  • Rebecca LuElla Miller October 13, 2010, 9:57 AM

    Hi, Carl, what an encouragement to hear that God saved you.

    I was in a critique group with a woman who wrote her memoir. She did as you say you’re doing—fleshed out scenes with dialogue though of course she didn’t have those conversations on tape. It’s what the publishing world calls creative non-fiction. I think if it bothers you, simply put an Author’s Note at the front saying the conversations are true to the spirit of the exchange though the words are not verbatim.

    As to the details you need to include. First, I don’t think I would “sanitize” so much as I would generalize. Think about the Apostle Paul. When he recounted his past life, he said things like I persecuted the church. The most detailed he got was mentioning that he held the coats of those who stoned Stephen. In other words, he did not go into graphic detail telling who and how he had persecuted those following Christ. He didn’t explicitly describe their screams or the blood pouring from their wounds. He didn’t even describe what impact those deaths or captures had on him. Instead, he stated his sin in almost clinical terms but didn’t soften it or reduce it.

    Second, I think I would make it my goal to glorify Christ. Sometimes that means making known what it was that Christ saved us from. But in the telling of the “from what,” it should never be glorified.

    I remember as a kid hearing some testimonies in church and thinking, Those guys got the best of both worlds. They got to live it up first, then come to Christ. I wish I could do that. I think that’s what you want to avoid—giving the impression that the passing pleasures of sin merit a closer look and perhaps a bit of experimentation.

    Hope something here is helpful.

    Becky

    • Carl Halling October 15, 2010, 6:11 AM

      Hi Mike, everyone; as I say; great site; great topic of conversation. This is a note to Becky:
      Hi Becky, thanks so much for you response to my posting, which was enormously helpful and pretty well encapsulated everything I wanted to hear. You corroborated what I thought was the best thing to do; oh and I love that term, creative non-fiction. That’s a new one to me and I’m going to use it (smile). I’m going to do just that: attach an author’s note to the effect that the conversations (and indeed recounting of events) are true to the spirit as I recall them rather than 100% accurate. Great role model the Apostle Paul, at no point did he wallow in his past; he just stated the bold facts. I may have included too much detail in my memoirs about my past. I didn’t feel too bad about it; perhaps because I never suggested that my past was anything wonderful: Also, it lasted such a short time and totally wrecked a once promising career in acting/music/entertainment! The passing pleasures of sin are great for a while, but eventually ruinous in this life, and with eternal consequences for the next.
      Regarding what should and should not be glorifed: I recently tried to write some very dark “Christian” psychological thrillers/short stories. Then, after some warnings which I feel were from God, I sanitised these stories to within an inch of their life; but still a sense of “darkness” didn’t quit me: it’s as if I was being told: don’t go there. I’ve not deleted them; but I’m being urged to, sanitised as they are. perhaps I’m being stubborn but I worked so hard (smile) Thanks so much for your terrific response to my posting. God bless you Becky. Carl.

  • Rebecca LuElla Miller October 15, 2010, 10:00 AM

    I’m glad my comments were helpful, Carl. May God show you what He wants you do do with those stories and how He wants you to write.

    Becky

    • Carl Halling October 15, 2010, 10:58 AM

      Alem to that, Becky, thanks again. God bless you. Carl.

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