I have followed with interest a series of cyber discussions about the Christian publishing industry that started yesterday. Spearheaded by novelist Eric Wilson in a post entitled Is It Time for Christian Fiction to Die?, the conversation is honest, provocative, informative, and quite civil.
One of the positive elements of the discourse is that it was initiated by a well-known, oft-published Christian author (Wilson is not a wannabe) and has been engaged by several “industry insiders.” In fact, I caught wind of the discussion through Debbie Marrie, acquisitions editor for Strang, on her Facebook page. The thread is up to 30 comments and includes several Sales staff at Strang.
Among the many topics broached by Eric (and there’s many good ones) is the role of Christian publishers and how much “profit” potentially weighs upon that role. In his initial post, he writes:
The late 1960s and early ’70s saw the rise of young Christian musicians who helped spearhead the Jesus Movement. As the number of listeners grew, a few entrepreneurial sorts saw an opportunity to spread the Word even further; yet with success came the need—initially uncorrupted—to keep “churning out the hits” to keep this baby rollin’. The moneychangers stepped in, the Spirit moved out, and for a long time Christian music became a cloistered, “safe” alternative instead of a vibrant, world-changing entity. I believe the same has happened in today’s Christian fiction.
And on Eric’s Facebook post (currently at 59 comments) he states:
It’s all about marketing and money. Some Christians don’t want to touch a book with the word “dang” in it, and some non-Christians don’t want to touch a book that mentions God in any personal way. Thus, the two are separated to please the market, sell books, and avoid confusion.
Before I proceed with my comments, let me make clear that Eric’s point (as I see it) is not to be accusatory or condemn the Christian publishing industry ad hoc. His main point is NOT whether “profit” should be the bottom-line for Christian publishers (that’s my question). Nor do I sense that Eric is bitter or down on Christians who write exclusively for other Christians.
That said, whenever this issue of the state of Christian publishing and the role of the Christian artist comes up, the issue of “profit-making” is not far behind. Have the “moneychangers” really stepped in? Is the bottom-line for Christian publishing really “all about marketing and money”?
That question is a lot harder to answer than you might think.
Before I signed my recent publishing contract, my agent negotiated with the publisher for the best possible deal. Was this wrong? Should I have simply accepted what the publisher offered? On top of this, my agent wants a cut. In fact, I hired her with the agreement that she could have a cut! So who’s the “money-grubber” in this scenario? The publisher, who thinks (hopes?) my books can sell? Me, for negotiating the best possible deal? Or my agent, for requiring a percentage of my profit?
Or maybe the “Christian” thing to do is to do it all for free.
When I was pastoring, I constantly had to face the “money issue”. The Church is called to share the Gospel and make disciples. Yet, like it or not, this cannot be done without money. Putting on quality programs, outreach events, and maintaining a reasonably nice facility takes money. Even Jesus had an entourage of individuals who supported Him, some financially. Still, whenever a minister or church addresses the “money issue,” they set themselves up for charges of greed, materialism, or empire-building. It’s really a no-win situation.
The same is true for Christian authors, agents, and publishers. We are in a business. However, our business is unique to all other businesses. Why? Because of that sticky adjective — “Christian”.
The moment a business proclaims itself as “Christian,” they, perhaps by inference, make the “bottom line” something other than “profit.” This isn’t to say Christian businesses should not make a profit. For just like a church, their “ministry” cannot continue without income. In fact, Christian businesses that DO NOT make money are probably not the best witness. Of course, not all Christian businesses will thrive. That’s a fact of life and business, and has nothing to do with one’s spirituality. However, if “getting the message” out is our bottom-line, then making a profit should not be the driving force behind our business.
But if we don’t make a profit, our business — which is to get our message out there — cannot survive.
Anyway, it’s an incredibly complex issue. Do the “moneychangers” really control the Christian publishing industry? Is the bottom-line for Christian publishing really “all about marketing and money”? But if we don’t make a profit, how can Christians ever hope to get their message out? And how can we make that profit without being market savvy?
That’s the thing I wondered myself about Christian fiction.
The book The Christian Atheist is a prime example.
Clearly, the author titled it that to raise controversy. And when I jump in, I’m disappointed. He wrote the book to be a pleasant read, not just tell the Truth.
It has a lot of good in it.
But it also is marketed to sell.
Is self-publishing the answer?
This whole issue smacked me in the face hardest at the height of the LEFT BEHIND rage. I found myself wondering (about myself as well as on a global scale) how much cash was shelled out for the LEFT BEHIND books and was diverted for Christian entertainment and never reached missionaries who had heard their call and were witnessing to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in Tajikistan…
As to self-publishing, Christian witness may benefit hugely from the ebook revolution. Nathan Bransford illuminates some aspects of this in his current blog: http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2010/07/top-10-myths-about-our-e-book-future.html
I guess I’ll start my comments on this entry here and post my own thought later. I had liked Left Behind when it was first out, but like you I got to wondering about things about midway.
For one thing, when “Soul Harvest” came out and it turned out not to be a trilogy (and thus prompting me to go ahead and buy the first book already and not wait for it to be over with until I start reading), I got to thinking “How long are they going to make this?” Someone said they were going to make it into seven books, one for each year of the tribulation, and pointed to an article which said as much, so I was satisfied with that.
Then I got through book six “Assassins” and book seven came out (an extremely short book, more on that later), and when I was done with book seven, the story wasn’t over. Frankly, I was pissed! But book eight was just around the corner, so I thought maybe they had divided the last book up (like it sometimes happens with things), but found out I was wrong about that too.
Then I got to looking at the length of each novel, and paid attention to all future novels after book eight too. Not a one of the sequels or the prequel trilogy had the same length as the first book did. Indeed, book seven had over a hundred pages less than the first book, and they even had a contest on that one to see how fast one could read through it. Of course it was a fast read with it being so short! Duh!
So with book eight I stopped reading the Left Behind books for a long time. I just didn’t like that they were charging the same amount (and more as the price of books increased) for less pages in future books of the series than what had been done in the first book.
A while back since it was all over with, I got the whole friggin’ series from a book club and read the prequel trilogy, but I haven’t really bothered to finish the series at this point. Not really sure when I will even though I figure it’s eventual.
Guy, I think you point out one of the unique expectations placed upon professing Christians in the industry. Like it or not, by openly stating our worldview, we are expected to view financial profit in a whole other light, and leverage them as a means of supporting missionaries, social justice efforts, and various other causes. Of course, humanitarian gestures are great PR. But when Christian publishers and authors talk about “profit,” we rightly get judged on another level.
I believe we are just seeing the edge of self-publishing. The interface of the visual arts, music, and writing with the internet seems to be getting tighter. Who knows where it will go.
This kind of opportunity may alleviate some of the financial pressures for artists. While Google (last I heard) hasn’t turned a profit on youtube yet, it has certainly brought exposure to many artists and others that would not have had a shot otherwise.
However, there does remain the “shotgun” nature of things on the internet, and marketing, targeting an audience, etc. must still be considered.
Some rambles…. Jeff
I like that this entry was spawned from what Eric had posted on his Facebook Wall. When reading the comments I had no idea how many were “insiders” other than a few I recognized such as yourself and Jeff Gerke and a couple others. Definitely a meeting of the minds on that thread.
You bring up some good questions about money and the bottom line when it involves something that is “Christian” based.
I think that we should look at this on a few different levels.
As a business, if a business is not concerned about making money, then it won’t and will not be in business for very long. But for Believers, if our business is geared toward being an outreach of our personal ministry, then the bottom line of the business isn’t the most important thing to us.
But that shouldn’t make it a non-important thing just because it’s not THE MOST important thing.
I think that’s where most Christian based businesses fail because they don’t see how both can be important. Believers start feeling that if they make both important than they’re “serving two masters” as it were. I would never advocate putting money on the same level as God or ministry or witnessing, but I’ll also never say that money is not important. Just try going for a month without any and you’ll find out real quick how important money can be! (I speak from experience having lived on the street with limited funds for a full year a few years back) I’m just saying that after we have our other priorities of minstry and family set, then money should be close to follow.
If we go into business and want to use it to reach others for Christ, it is imperative on our part that we run the best business possible and not be afraid to charge the right price for admission. If the product of the business is what is being used to reach others for Christ, then the product should be of the highest quality with the strictest standards applied to it. If the product is negligable and it’s more a matter of making money in order to use it to support ministries, then it is imperative that the money is used in the most responsible way possible and that any employees are well compensated along with the great amount that will be donated to the ministries being supported.
Even with a straight minstry that isn’t a business, but a church or evangelistic or prophetic thing, we shouldn’t back down on making sure it is funded well. When we look at what Paul said, he mentioned that he had full right to ask for money for his ministry but chose not to. That doesn’t mean he didn’t have any money. His trade was one of a tent maker which made him enough money to fund what he was called to do and provide for himself. Since he was funding his ministry that way, he didn’t see any need to ask for additional funds. And he didn’t take the opportunity to criticize those that did ask either! Instead, he took one of his many times to praise God for the fact that there were people out there sharing the Gospel of Jesus to others.
Even Jesus kept a treasurer for his ministry (which should forever dispel the notion that Jesus had no money while doing His ministry as why would someone need a treasurer unless they had some significant funds above just a few dollars). Sure, it was Judas, and he was trouble, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong to let a ministry have money. Judas’s problems were his own, and he was dipping into the funds for himself and Jesus knew it. When Judas betrayed Jesus and hung himself, one of the first things the apostles did after Jesus ascended was to replace the post that Judas had (mainly as apostle, but I suspect they looked at the way the apostle they were selecting handled money too).
So, ultimately, whether it’s a ministry or a business to help further the Gospel, we need to keep money as a priority, but the MAIN priority is to share the Gospel and strengthen the lives of Believers in worship to God. If we lose sight of that as our MAIN priority and let money take its place then we’ve set up an idol before God and He doesn’t like that sort of thing and a business or minstry that does that will have its days numbered for sure.
It seems to me the issue is greed, and until we can know the condition of every publisher’s heart (meaning the individuals in any given publisher), we can’t make a blanket charge about trhem being moneychangers in the temple. Just making money is not a sin. Jesus told the parable of the talents about using our resources wisely, which in that case meant multiplication. Making money, as a publisher, may be about being a good steward as much being greedy.
I’ve said before, not here, and I’ll say again: I think it’s a fairly artsy-romantic idea to perform strictly for the love and pleasure of your medium, ever at the mercy of the beloved muse, in some kind of hippie-fashion. I don’t really think that’s a Christian view (no, I don’t think your espousing it). It’s a bit naive to think you’ll never dance because you have a family to feed, never write because you have bills to pay, and never be forced to consider writing Book A because, frankly, you have a kid heading to college and Book B isn’t really as marketable at the moment.
I’m admittedly the last person who likes “selling myself.” I hate it. My mother talks about my books more than I do. But part of what I’m learning is the same principle when asking for support money when going on a mission trip: I’m doing something, and I’m inviting you in. I think this is a worthy investment, and I want you to come play with me. I want to reach a dying world and offer life and light and hope of a future – and I don’t want to go it alone.
When I tutor, I tell everyone up front what to expect of me, what not to expect. Likewise, when you read something of mine, you should know what you’re getting. I’m offering something. And I think it has some value. And it’s not just me. I shamelessly promote my favorite writers, for the same reason: There is value and worth and something wonderful there that is worth, to me, the money you’re paying to read it.
My dad always asks, “What’s your integrity worth to you? Your name?”
I think it’s the same principle. A Christian-based business, then, is asking the same question. Not only does it run on Judeo-Christian principles, it has to ask what its name is worth.
The question posed is really one of the heart, I think, which is why it’s difficult to offer an answer in in the universal sense. It’s an individual, case-by-case answer. To be sure, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to generate a profit. There is, we know, a problem with jacking up prices and robbing people. (And if you really want to be stingy, we’re not supposed to charge interest. It’s there, in red letter.)
I think in the end, a better measure for CBA is not how much money it generates, but its reputation. Do people who come in contact with CBA writers find gracious men and women of integrity, or do they find men and women who are arrogant and callous? Do they find good, wise business men and women, or do they find foolishness and unethical behavior? Do they find CBA publishers and editors this way? Are CBA businessmen/women of good repute, or are they jokes at best and conniving con-men at worst?
One thing about customer service I’ve learned: I don’t care how much you have to offer, and most people don’t care, unless I first trust your character. Customers come back and spread word about businesses who (a) offer a good product/service and (b) have excellent people to work with. It doesn’t matter how good your product is if you’re consistently a jerk; and it doesn’t matter how nice you are if you can’t make a toaster that won’t break, so to speak.
That’s just me, though.
“I think in the end, a better measure for CBA is not how much money it generates, but its reputation.”
That’s a great way to look at it, Kaci. It does leave me wondering, however, what the “reputation” of Christian authors and publishers are. The answer may be as nebulous as the “profit” question, and hard to get a definitive assessment on. Once again, it seems to come down to a person-to-person issue rather than a sweeping statement on the industry.
I honestly couldn’t answer it off-hand. I will say, though, that if the general reputation, overall, all exceptions aside, is lacking, then it is time the group as a whole start re-evaluating and examining its own practices, even as each individual examines his/her own heart.
Don’t get me wrong; I have no illusion that CBA is “a church,” for lack of better phraseology. But I’ve worked with or for Christian-owned/run organizations, and the principle is the same as with anything else: You want a particular reputation, you gotta all be on the same page as to what that reputation is and looks like, and you gotta fight for it.
I just read this at Dystel & Goderich Literary Management: And do they sell well? The standards for success really do change from book to book based on any number of factors—category, author’s platform, size of the advance, size of the marketing budget—but everyone agrees that the majority of books fail to earn out their advances (meaning that the author’s royalties never accrue to the point that they actually earn more than they were paid up front). What percentage? An exact number is probably impossible to pin down, but it’s said that 80-85% of books published don’t earn out.
So I wonder in light of these numbers, just how greedy can we claim publishers are? Are we suggesting that Christian publishers are MORE greedy than secular publishers?
Once I looked at Christian publishers as a ministry. I think many of them started out that way. Today many are owned by secular companies and there is no doubt they are a business. They make decisions based on what they believe is good business. Except a lot of fine Christians are making those decisions. Are we to suppose they put aside their Christian principles more often than a Christian writer does who is promoting his own work or who is writing “edgy” fiction to sell well?
This discussion troubles me because we can only answer for ourselves. I don’t see the value of blanket statements about people we don’t know. It’s the way people drive. They feel free to yell at cars and make rude gestures because they forget that real people are inside behind the wheel. Those “greedy publishers” have real CEOs and managing editors and how are we to know if they are making their decisions based on greed or on the need to earn enough to avoid staff cuts?
We’re too ignorant about the particulars—the people’s hearts and the companies’ books.
Becky
My question is…who is this question directed at? Writers? Or non-writer readers? Because we can all complain about how the CBA publishes stuff based on profit–but who’s supplying that profit? The bazillion people who bought all twelve books in The Left Behind Series and other “Christian” fiction. The readers–that’s who. So, should the publishers be blamed because Christian readers are out there begging for the next book in the LB Series or the next Amish romance?
Of course the answer is no to that question. If the Christian population is asking for those kinds of books, and the books themselves are not un-biblical, then there’s nothing to be said on that front.
BUT, when the CBA publishes stuff like that to the /exclusion/ of other Christian writing–when less popular genres are ignored because, despite talent, writers of those genres are not going to sell bazillions of copies–then there’s a problem. They’re telling those writers that we’re not a valid part of the body of Christ. We’re not the head, or the hand–we’re an appendix or whatever that the body supposedly can function perfectly without. Well, the medical community has discovered appendices aren’t so useless–as a matter of fact, they play a very important role in keeping the body healthy.
Okay, so I’ll throw my change in the pot. I think I agree with a lot a statements here on how hard it is to judge Christian publishers and whether or not they’re doing it for “profit” or not. And David, I totally agree with you about Left Behind. Whether or not they stretched it out for profit, it hurt the series for me, because by book seven I threw it against the wall and said, “Okay, now I just don’t care. I hope everyone in this book dies, because then SOMETHING will happen…”
Coming from the perspective of someone who has written with one foot in and one foot out of the CBA – my fiction has been published in the secular horror press; my nonfiction in the CBA, I can say the issue of money and the bottom line is even more pressing fpr the Christian writer in the general market, especially for short fiction. The HWA (Horror Writers Association) sets a standard for their fiction that’s 5 cents a word; they consider that “professional pay”. 1 – 3 cents a word is considered “semi-pro” and a flat rate of $25, $15, or $10 considered “token pay”.
Now, up until maybe the last year or so, there was a pretty big vibe in the industry that if you weren’t selling at least “semi-pro” you weren’t serious about the craft, and that even if you were selling semi-pro, your ultimate goal was to hit the higher pay bracket. Now, there’s some positives to this. In the general market, anyway, for the most part higher pay = more quality, respected magazine, real street cred. I remember the first story I “sold” for contributor copies only, and when they came they looked like they’d been printed out at Kinko’s, hand-stapled, the illustrations done in magic marker.
Plus, there’s some satisfaction after spending hours in the deep morning writing, asking my wife to watch the kids for “just another hour so I can wrap this up”, or even asking her to tolerate that blank stare of mine when I’m wrestling with a plot issue, to show her a check and say, “Look! I can pay for groceries or gas this week!” (sometimes both, if I’m lucky).
BUT, just this past weekend at NECON – http://www.campnecon.com – Michelle Pendergrasss and I got into a discussion about how this should look for Christian writers in the secular market. Should we bow to this idea that our fiction is only to be “for sale to the highest bidder”? Lots of panels dealt with the right “business model for the genre writer”. Ironically enough, there was an interesting panel about how the paradigm has shifted radically; because the economy is suffering so badly, very few magazines/collections pay pro-rates anymore, so these secular writers were grappling with this conflict: stop writing or only write for pay, or follow the love of writing and submit to magazines with OTHER priorities in mind?
The irony? I remarked to Michelle that as a serious writer, I didn’t want to give my work away, but as a Christian who writes, the whole hubbub over the “paradigm shift” didn’t bother me…because she and I SHOULD have a different sort of business model to begin with, one whose ultimate bottom line should be determined by our faith, not dollar signs.
That having been said, the placing of books – should I ever be lucky enough to be published in the CBA – is not just about cash, I don’t think. For me, it’d be about reaching readers. As a Christian who has tossed many CBA novels out the window in a near fit of literary disgust, I want to write for those Christians with similar tastes.
BUT, I want LOTS of people to read my stuff. Heck, EVERYONE. Marketing is not only about money, I think (someone probably already said this and I missed it). It’s about understanding what each book is achieving, and trying to get it to its proper target audience, which brings up even things like awards. I mean…in a market that’s suddenly awash with supernatural thrillers and suspense thrillers and crime/detective novels, why do we only have CBA awards like The Christy Award and the Inspy Award? Why not a “Edgar Allen Poe” award? Something geared towards fantasy (There is a Clive Staples award, though, I believe). An “Ellery Queen Award”? I’d actually be horrified if any novel of mine won a “Christy”, because it’d be totally inappropriate for my work. Again, if God has CBA publication in my future, I’m going to join the HWA (Horror Writers Association) and do my best to get my novel on the ballot for the Stoker Awards. Having a CBA author who belongs to the HWA, maybe even lucky enough to just get nominated for the Stoker helps marketing and place it appropriately for readers who will most likely enjoy it, both Christian and non.
Okay. Scree over. I apologize if I rambled and made no sense. ‘Tis very early…
Kevin, now that I am officially in process to be published, I have thought a lot about joining the HWA. For whatever reason, I am wrestling with the stigma of “officially” aligning myself as a “Horror Writer.” Weird, huh? But to your query about a Horror Award for faith-driven lit, I LOVE this idea! Perhaps we can brainstorm on this, hm?
Mike,
I’ve actually been thinking about something like this for some time too for Christian spec-fic in general and not just horror, although one just for that would be cool enough if enough of it was published each year to make it competitive. If you want to include me in the conversation on this, just drop me an e-mail either with the one I’ve entered or on Facebook. I think something like this would help the Christian spec-fic community greatly.
Be encouraged,
David
Oh, and I should note that I’ve learned “pro pay” and “pro behavior” are often two separate things. Writers receiving the former don’t always display the latter, and for a Christian, it should be much easier to conduct ourselves in a respectful, professional manner, simply because of our demeanor and conduct.
Kevin, I love what you say about the whole pro market issue. It’s true, there’s a huge pressure on writers to gain pro sales. Not just to be able to show our spouses that what we’re doing is going to benefit the family finances, but also to “prove” we’ve got what it takes to make it in the writing world. Editors and agents–from what I’ve heard–look for things like that. Granted, in Christian spec-fic that can’t be the case, because, as far as I know, other than selling a book there’s no “pro” market in that area. Christian spec-fic zines are all either token or 4theluv. So, we’re forced to turn to the secular market–or choose to because we write stuff that can sell there, too–and find the competition so fierce that pro-pay sales are an endangered species.
I have to say, though, that I’ve found–and maybe this is because I started writing after the economy tanked–that pay no longer seems proportional to quality. There are some great no-pay / token-pay / contributor-copy-only markets that publish awesome stories. I am hoping that this will start being noted by the book publishing community. Because readers are reading our writing, whether we have the prestige of a big check behind the sale or not.
I am struck by a number of themes as I follow this conversation:
1. Stewardship – Whatever a Christian has, it was given to him/her to be used to the glory of God– be it money, talent, possessions, or whatever. Each individual and corporate effort is measured by this standard.
2. Greed – is motivated by a lack of trust in God. Does he have my best interests in mind? What’s taking so long? I have a plan that will accomplish what I perceive is best for me, and I will follow it, e.g. Judas.
3. Purpose – Do we consistently review–individually and corporately–the specific call God has on us? That goes for both readers and writers.
4. The nature of readers – both Christian and non-Christian. Kevin, your comment, “For me, it’d be about reaching readers. As a Christian who has tossed many CBA novels out the window in a near fit of literary disgust, I want to write for those Christians with similar tastes.” seems to embody a dilemma I’m sensing among Christian writer’s, i.e., “Do I give them what they want or do I give them what they need?” Which seems to be almost proportionately balanced with the question, “Do I write to sell or write “my heart?” As to tossing “many CBA novels out the window in a near fit of literary disgust,” what end did those writers have in mind? I had a similar reaction to much of the early “Christian Rock.” At first it was my ticket to be able to listen to rock without “sinning.” But after a while, it all seemed so canned, predictable, and insincere– it’s no wonder I eventually gravitated toward Larry Norman, Daniel Amos, and similar artists.
So, what of it? The verses in Matthew 10 come to mind, where Jesus is sending out it his apostles to “to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matt. 10:6) He gives them many instructions as to what their mission is, how to conduct themselves, what to say, logistics, and method. It was originally v16 that bubbled into my consciousness as I read these posts: “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.”
For what it’s worth – Jeff
David – I’m not sure if you thought I’m Jeff Gerke, but if you were, I’m just a guy who likes thoughtful, thorough conversation on just about any topic. I believe I’m one of the latest members of this blog if you want to check out my very abbreviated bio.
Jeff,
As I respond, I’m presuming you are the person who had previously posted just using your first name. Although the first name is obviously the same, I had never thought you were he as I am sure that Jeff Gerke would have used his full name for any comment he would have made and it would have been highlighted to go to the MLP site or the WTME site. That and context clues in your previous posts on different entries pretty much proved that surity. So when I read your comment at the end there I was a bit perplexed as to why you had specifically thought that I of all the people that had posted here would have mistaken you for Mr. Gerke.
So I first checked my posts here in this thread before looking elsewhere and I think I found where you may have gotten that mistaken assumption:
“When reading the comments I had no idea how many were “insiders” other than a few I recognized such as yourself and Jeff Gerke and a couple others.”
As my post immediately followed a post by yourself, perhaps you were thinking that I was talking about the comments on here and that I had thought you were Jeff Gerke. But if you look at it in the context of the paragraph with what comes before and what comes after, you should see that I’m not talking about the comments here, but somewhere else:
“I like that this entry was spawned from what Eric had posted on his Facebook Wall. When reading the comments I had no idea how many were “insiders” other than a few I recognized such as yourself and Jeff Gerke and a couple others. Definitely a meeting of the minds on that thread.”
See how I’m not talking about the comments here, but rather the comments “on that thread”? The one that Eric had started on Facebook? That opening paragraph was a response to what Mike had talked about at the beginning of this blog post:
“I have followed with interest a series of cyber discussions…..Spearheaded by novelist Eric Wilson in a post entitled Is It Time for Christian Fiction to Die?…..One of the positive elements of the discourse is that it was initiated by a well-known, oft-published Christian author (Wilson is not a wannabe) and has been engaged by several “industry insiders.”…..The thread is up to 30 comments and includes several Sales staff at Strang.”
He said more that supported or backed up the sampling of quotes I just gave from the beginning up top, but I hope that now you can better see what I was saying. I had seen Jeff Gerke and Mike Duran and a few others I recognized post comments on Eric Wilson’s thread, not on here. Sorry if I had not made that clear enough with what I had originally posted. 🙂
““many CBA novels out the window in a near fit of literary disgust,” what end did those writers have in mind?”
Walking a fine line between candor and politeness…while also trying not to hijack Mike’s thread away from the profit issue…for me, most of the CBA novels I read during my year and half/two years of reviewing CBA books and trying to break into the CBA before turning to the secular market had these issues:
1. They simply weren’t well written. Bad dialogue, inconceivable plots, inconsistent characters, POV issues, too much tell, AWFUL authorial intrusion (IE, this is not the character anymore but the author talking about adultery or spirituality) – all small things – which made me ask: “HOW? How did this get by an editor?” (although to be fair, this happens in the ABA, too. It’s just larger, easier to miss.)
2. They weren’t STORIES. IE, Fiction. Many were pasted over devotionals or Sunday School lessons. They didn’t take me anywhere new. This will sound harsh – and if it’s not Christlike, I beg forgiveness – but I’ve heard these stories before. Since primary church. I hear them every Sunday in Church. Encounter them in my own devotionals. I want a novel to take me somewhere DIFFERENT. I can go buy any number of devotionals on marriage purity – and have, very often – from the Christian Living section. If I buy a thriller, mystery, supernatural suspense: that’s what I want.
3. The craft and the story aren’t the primary thrusts. Who knows? Maybe they shouldn’t be. But I had enough of great premises and even great stories and SOMETIMES even good writing that ended TERRIBLY and INCONSISTENTLY with the world the author clearly wanted to set up, because they were clearly told there was a “certain way it had to end”. That, and the CBA seems to hold a very tight reins on creativity. The best CBA novel I’ve read in years was T. L. Hines’ “Faces in the Fire”. Four loosely interconnected novellas whose major thrust was just that “everything is connected”. I thought it was a rare moment of CBA genius.
I’ve been reading voraciously since elementary school. My orthodox, fundamental Baptist Deacon Dad fed this hunger with Edgar Allen Poe, James Fenimore Cooper, comic books and Star Trek novels. With the exception of a select group of CBA authors, I will not read CBA novels, because they just don’t hold water for me. Sounds harsh, and I apologize.
Mike, David and others,
I know this is off-topic, but please bear with me.
As you can probably tell, I am a complete newbie. My recent posts on your blog, Mike, are my very first foray into this realm. However, that is no excuse. My apologies for not even checking out the thread you mention in your initial post. I need to do my homework. I’ll also be sure to read more carefully your previous post about blog etiquette.
And David, your explanation was very clear. Thanks for responding.
Kevin, your comments certainly clarify the statement I quoted, thanks.
Again, thank you everyone for your patience. As this post is not on topic and you might have other tips or comments for me, feel free to email me.
Best regards,
Jeff
Jeff, no need to apologize. I appreciate your reading and commenting here and, if you DO happen to wander way out in left field, I’ll make sure to let you know. 😉
Thanks, Mike. I certainly enjoy the thoughts that are shared here.
This is a bit late, as this thread has probably moved on, but something popped in my head along the line about wanting to reach readers. I remember a conversation I had with Eric Wilson awhile back about his encountering a fan at a book signing, this fan telling him how much he loved the Jerusalem Undead series, but he never would’ve even picked it up if a friend hadn’t given it to him, because he doesn’t go into Christian bookstores or visit the Christian book section. Something to consider.
And Kat, ironically enough, all the stories I’ve sold to the secular horror market, best I’ve done is semi-pro. All the nonfiction pieces I’ve sold to CBA houses for collections? They pay a lot better, so….of course, there’s more of a demand, I think, for “chicken soup for the soul type stories” than there are horror stories, I guess. Pity. Wonder if I could make it big with “Chicken soup for the undead soul” market?
Here’s a few more alternatives:
“Chicken Soup for the Vampire’s Soul”
“Chicken Soup for the Zombie’s Soul”
“Chicken Soup for the Lychan’s Soul”
“Chicken Soup for the Robot’s Soul”
“Chicken Soup for the Swamp Creature’s Soul”
“Chicken Soup for the Mummy’s Soul”
“Chicken Soup for the Ghoul’s Soul”
“Chicken Soup for the Ghost’s Soul”
What do ya’ think? Could we start a new trend? 😉
Great, David! But lets not confine it to horror–how about “CS for the Dragon Lover’s Soul” or “CS for the Elven Soul”? 😀
Kevin, I’ve also sold quite a few nonfiction Christian pieces for pro pay. NF is definitely the area to make money for short pieces in the Christian market. I’m ok with writing for that market, as there have been stories I really felt called to share, but my heart is really for fiction writing. And, congrats on at least making semi-pro! My sales have all been token or 4theluv, although I did win a $50 cash prize for a story once. Still trying for the higher rates, though!
Same here, Kat. I stumbled into the nonfiction venue, then the same editor kept contact me, so I thought “Why not?” The nice thing is they’ve all been about our family and my children and my path to writing, so it’d be nice to – along with a fiction collection – put together a nonfiction/essay collection so the kids can look back on them.
The only drawback, of course, is that the NF is all my inlaws and parents will read. I tell them of a new fiction sale, and my mother-in-law or my father says, “That’s great, but when are you going to write another one of your NICE stories?”
I stumbled into NF writing too, in a way. I attended a writers meeting with a speaker who talked about “ministry writing” and I realized I had personal experience stories that would probably work for that type of thing. The speaker helped me get my first one together, which sold immediately, and I shifted my focus to that for a while for simple fact that I really liked getting checks in the mail! (Yes, it does mean a lot to me to have my stories “touch” people–honestly and truly, but the check is the immediate gratification.) I still write stories like that occasionally–although I’ve made most of my money by selling the stories as reprints. That first one I mentioned, so far has sold seven times.
And yeah, those are the stories that get the most attention from my family and writer friends. Although, I must say, my mom has read EVERY short fiction piece I’ve written and been very cool about it. I had a short horror published a couple of weeks ago, and when I posted on my blog about it, she left a comment that read something like, “Great story! Although it makes me wonder if the epidural I had when you were born was too strong.” 😛 Hehe…
Okay, guys. You’ve really got me curious. I’d like to know how to break into the NF short works market so I can get some money coming in too. Even if it’s not that much, it’d be something that would let me know I’m moving in the right direction while I work on my novel and my other project.
Mike –
An award like that would be great. Call it what you will: The Edgar Allen Poe Suspense in Fiction Award, The Raven Award, The Henry James Award (from Turn of the Screw). Unfortunately, they already have the Shirley Jackson awards. Anything that reflects a proper genre. For example, not that Tosca didn’t deserve it, but it’s weird that “Demon: A Memoir” gets a Christy Award. “Strange Horizons” award. Heck, a “Where The Map Ends Award”, sponsored by Jeff Gerke. Something that makes sense for the thriller/supernatural thriller/suspense thriller/action genre.
AND, as for the HWA, I’ve swung back and forth. Originally, I was so desperate to join I started counting my checks until I could qualify for “Affiliate Membership” (which, to me, is really just “wannabe membership). Then, I sorta fell in with the “Brian Keene-I-Hate-The-HWA” crowd, because a whole bunch of big names left the HWA and it was no longer “vogue” to join it.
Now – I want to wait until I’ve achieved the status of “Active Membership” – three pro sales in short fiction or an advance from a midlist – and join at least for one year. Lot of people say the HWA is dead and should be buried. A lot of people say it can still be of some good. I know and respect writers on BOTH sides, so I figure the only way I’ll know is if I join myself. Also, I would like to join the Thriller Writers Association. Both of them seem to be a lot more worthwhile than my one year membership in the Christian Fiction Writers Association….
WHICH, David, the only thing good to come out of that was this lead into nonfiction. I was part of their email loop, someone posted a call to an inspirational collection by Tyndale, and since that book, the same editor has contacted me and I’ve sold four more stories to Bethany House (2) and Guideposts (2). For that, ACFW was useful. Also, I’d recommend http://www.duotrope.com. Register with them, and you get all sorts of submissions calls, right to your email.
And another thing Mike, part of me believes it’s important for us Christians to go out there and mingle with those ‘dirty awful secular writers ‘ (note: pun). I like that Robert Liparulo and T. L. Hines and Mike Dellosso are members of secular writing associations. I attend three cons yearly: NECON, Context Sci Fi/Fantasy/Horror, and Horrorfind Weekend. (Also, I know Michelle Pendergrass is working on a Midnight Diner Conference, als0).
I find that most the people I encounter treat me as my behavior dictates, regardless of my faith – with respect and professionalism, if I offer the same. There’s never been any pressure to behave or act in a way I shouldn’t. I don’t evangelize – I’m not there to do that, because the panels are awesome and it’s great to hang with other writers of my genre – but I’ve served on numerous panels dealing with spirituality in fiction and should be on a “Christian Horror” panel at Context this year.
Besides. Could you see me at the Blue Mountain Christian Writers Conference? I’d probably fall asleep. Also. Where else could I go and see Bruce Campbell and that tall scary guy from Phantasm?
http://www.horrorfindweekend.com/celebrities.html
Did I just use ‘also’ twice in one sentence? It’s too early…
Thanks for posting about duotrope, Kevin! I use them to search for markets all the time, but didn’t realize I could get call-outs in my email by signing up–I thought it was just to use the submission tracker. Cool!
The only writers groups I’ve officially joined are ones that have local meetings, so there’s no “prestige” with it or anything. I haven’t joined ACFW because I honestly didn’t see any point, but I’d kind of like to join SFWA and HWA if I can get the sales. No other reason than to me it’s a milestone marker.
Wow!!! Am I ever learning about what authors have to go through. This is cool. And you’re all “real” people.
Question: Can someone clarify for me the specifics of the horror genre? But, more importantly, what the “interface” (no better word at present) between a *Christian author and Horror looks like?
*(by that I mean a Christian who writes Horror, not a person who writes Horror for Christians)
As a reader of various genres –
general fiction (Nick Hornby, Pete Hamill, T.C. Boyle, Maeve Binchy),
action/thrillers (Lee Child, Steve Berry),
historical fiction (Bernard Cornwell, Laurie R. King, Dennis Lehane, Starling Lawrence)
– to name a few, I think I’ve only read one book that might be considered horror, “The Terror” by Dan Simmons. It was fascinating and hard to put down, but at the same time, produced feelings of can’t-this-be-over?-it’s -too-much. Normally, when I think of horror, I think of slasher movies, e.g. Nightmare on Elm Street and Friday the 13th, etc. Although I know, as far as writing goes, that Edgar Allen Poe’s writings probably most closely fit this genre (at least at one time, I’m assuming they still do?), and titles like “Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde” and “The Picture of Dorian Gray” probably fit this genre.
I’m assuming what you’re writing is more along the lines of “The Terror,” as opposed to slasher movies, but maybe you can clarify it for me. And Mike, maybe you’ve addressed this in another post that I haven’t read.
Another question: Upon contemplation, I was able to see loads of application/symbolism for life in “The Terror.” Is this how Horror can work as a “builder” (for again, lack of a better term), for readers?
Thanks,
Jeff