So a while back, I joined a group for lovers of “edgy Christian fiction.” But I was disappointed. You see, unless you were a nun, a schoolmarm, or Mrs. Grundy … the group really wasn’t very edgy.
That’s when it hit me: The term “edgy” means different things for different people.
Take last month’s “conversation” regarding author Eric Wilson’s challenge to readers and writers of Christian fiction. My post at Novel Journey garnered not a few comments, one of which was from literary agent Chip MacGregor. For the record, I enjoy Chip’s blog and appreciate his candor. Nevertheless, I was underwhelmed by his comments regarding that post and replied:
“…as one who reads both CBA and general market books, I just haven’t found these ‘edgy’ CBA books people keep talking about. (And if someone cites Francine Rivers again in this regard, I’m gonna kick my dog.) You say, ‘The fact is, the market calls for both edgy AND safe books. CBA provides both.’ I dunno. These books might be ‘edgy’ in relation to CBA standards, but as someone who works in the construction field and reads pretty widely, they really aren’t. “
Chip responded:
“Francine – edgy? Ha! I love Francine, but she’s not what I’d consider edgy. A selection: Read Lisa Samson, Charles Martin, Gina Holmes, Claudia Mair Burney, Stephen James, Mary DeMuth, Mark Bertrand’s “Back on Murder.” That should get you started.”
Uh, well… I have read some of those authors, and know others who’ve read the rest. The consensus? NOT EDGY. Don’t misunderstand me. This is not meant to suggest that those novelists aren’t excellent writers. They are! But if those authors are representative of the best in “edgy” Christian fiction, then my contention stands. When Christians talk about “edgy” fiction, they mean two different things.
Which is why my “edgy” is your “obscene.”
To be “edgy,” there must be an “edge,” a “boundary,” a “demarcation.” In that sense, the term “edgy Christian fiction” reaffirms our “boundaries.” But in order to really be “edgy,” a Christian novel must push — even cross — those boundaries. Problem is, they don’t.
The Christian books that deal with “edgy” topics — rape, incest, adultery, addiction, lust, etc. — do so behind a scrim of safety. In other words, you can write a book about rape. You just can’t be explicit. You can write a book about a foul-mouthed racist. You just can’t actually show him being a foul-mouthed racist. You can write a book about a conflicted porn star. Just spare us the specifics.
We are taught as writers to SHOW not TELL. But if you’re a Christian author, that doesn’t always apply. You see, SHOWING certain things can get you into trouble. We don’t need to know what specific female body part your antagonist is staring at. We don’t need to hear the epithets being hurled at the black boy. We don’t need to see the drunken father actually touching his daughter in the tool shed. Apparently, TELLING has its advantages. In this way, “Edgy” Christian fiction has come to mean writing ABOUT difficult subjects, without actually going into detail.
That’s the “new edgy.”
Hey, everyone has to draw a line somewhere. Some people just draw the line at different places. The Christian publishing industry happens to draw the line more conservatively than my tastes. Heck, a lot of people do.
But as someone who spent 11 years in the ministry, I think our PG worldview is flat outta touch. For instance, once I counseled a man who had committed bestiality. How does one approach a situation like that? Or do we just never talk about it? Another man was addicted to masturbation, to the point where he bloodied himself. Then there was a woman who performed weird sexual rituals for her husband. She was a new Christian and he threatened to shoot her if she stopped. Along the way, there were drug addicts, self-mutilators, incest victims, and serial adulterers. And the list goes on. The funny thing is, the average church-goer had no idea. And would rather keep it that way.
Which is probably why the “new edgy” just seems so… tame.
To my wife, a steak with any trace of pink in it is “raw.” To me, the bloodier the better. Likewise, to some readers of Christian fiction, any trace of language or sex is “edgy.” But to me, if it’s not “raw,” it’s over-cooked.
* * *
So do you think some Christian fiction is genuinely “edgy”? Do you agree that the term is relative? Do you think Christian fiction can get any “edgier” and still remain “Christian”? And do you think it’s possible to remain true to a story without sometimes showing explicit elements?
I think the problem is a little more fundamental. We’ve messed up by separating out the Christian market from everyone else. It’s the Christian booksellers and publishers who can’t tolerate true edginess.
There are edgy Christian books out there. They’re being published be ABA publishers. They’re in the world, not of it… as we should be. Meanwhile, CBA is in their own world of denial.
Good post.
“Edgy” is yet another term I just don’t find useful. To me it screams “Let’s hype this up as much as possible.” If everything is mind-boggling/blowing, nail-biting, gripping, thrilling, mesmerizing, and ‘edge-of-your-seat,’ then let’s take a lesson from The Incredibles: If everyone is a Super, the Supers cease to exist, because the Supers are now normal.
Likewise, to call everything including the kitchen sink “edgy” not only sounds like “totally rad!” (meaning, really kinda dorky) is for “edgy” to become…normal.
I have a mental “five scale” system. Most books are, in my head, between two-star and four-star. I can count on one hand the number I’ve given mental ones or fives. Movies…most barely make 3, as far as I’m concerned.
Just saying.
And just to make sure I answered the questions:
So do you think some Christian fiction is genuinely “edgy”? Do you agree that the term is relative?
I think “edgy” is a useless, overused term, so, yes, it’s a bit relative. As for how much genuine edginess is out there, I have no idea.
Do you think Christian fiction can get any “edgier” and still remain “Christian”?
I honestly think there’s a line that shouldn’t be crossed, Christian or no. There’s a line between taking something dark and making something glorious, and simply…being grotesque. If it falls into the grotesque, it’s too far. Christian or non-Christian, there are things you just don’t do.
And do you think it’s possible to remain true to a story without sometimes showing explicit elements?
A resounding and solid: It depends.
Thank you for this post. I’m a neophyte and my first book was a serial killer crime novel. I’d been criticized that my serial killer wasn’t “evil” enough and that I needed to tone down the gleeful manner in which he disposed of the victims. (It was a revenge motive so he was both enjoying the taste of “justice” while at the same struggling with what he was doing.) It’s good to know that some people out there want a story from a Christian worldview that’s realistic to the world.
Very interesting. I am on the edge in many ways, but have backed away from the edge as well as being a “Christian” writer in my three children’s books. If you read them carefully, you’d understand that the girl in the second book was sexually abused before she went to live with Santa. The Indian girl in the third book was racially profiled and teased/beaten much more than her future husband would ever admit. Thankfully, Santa was a ‘saint’, even if his elves were not. The point? Edginess can be there – even if veiled or hidden. That said – my next books (NOT children’s books) may drop over your cliff – and unfortunately may not be as marketable. That’s the real edge – if you can’t sell it, you’re just (to be edgy) – pissing into the wind. Whew!
I’m just not sure why an explicit scene of rape, to use that particular example, is essential to reaching someone. Are we saying that an unbeliever can’t get the horror of rape unless described in explicit detail? I believe any person, believer or non, ought to be given more credit than that.
So how is that helpful, and an improvement to CBA fiction?
Brenda, I am definitely not suggesting that every gory detail should be shown in every situation. Not only is it unnecessary to many stories, at some point it probably becomes gratuitous. So PG is a necessary category.
But I would flip the question on you. Are you saying that the explicit horrors of rape should NEVER be shown? Are you saying showing an explicit scene CANNOT be used to “reach” someone? The fact is, showing the explicit horrors of rape may, in some cases, be necessary to the story and may also be essential to reaching someone. Appreciate your comments!
I tend to agree with Kaci. The reason I opt for Christian fiction is to get away from the language I hear everyday at work, the gore available every night on CSI reruns, and the hopelessness I see every day in the news. Why put out good money for discretionary reading only to have my ‘sense sand sensibilities’ bashed with all the above stuff I get for free?
I do step out of Christian literature, but I realize I’m taking a chance doing so. I find excellent writing, but depressing ‘real’ themes (e.g., “The Swan Thieves”). I put the book down a no better person than I was picking it up. I like a book to threaten more change in my life than just having read another book. The question posed is, what does it take to do that?
My novels do not shy away from the harshness of the times about which I write. They carry ‘mature’ themes and, I hope, realistic settings. But I credit my readers with enough intelligence to know that my character has vomited without describing the size and color of the chunks. I think I can apply the absolute “never” in that last sentence (ref your response to Brenda). I can apply the same absolute, for my own reading taste, to explicitness in rape, incest and some of the other atrocities you mention. I know what they are; I get it. I don’t have to break my leg to know that it hurts; I don’t have to read an explicit account of a rape to know that it’s horrible. Encountering explicit details of scenes like these doesn’t make me walk away from the book feeling like I’m better for it, like I understand the author’s story and theme better. It just makes me walk away from the book.
I appreciate the author’s skill and finesse who can walk me to the “edge” without slapping me in the face along the way.
Thanks for visiting, Bruce! I think your comment demonstrates my point: Readers / writers just have two set of standards when it comes to “edgy.” Yours and mine are different.
I totally DO NOT write to “get away” from the “language,” “gore” and “hopelessness” in the world. This is not my motivation, nor do I think it’s a good one for Christian writers to have. Not saying we should be excessive in it, but if my purpose for being an author is to sanitize stuff, avoid stuff, tone down stuff, tiptoe around stuff, and make sure things turn out okay, I’m sorry, I think we’re missing the mark.
I work in construction. I hear the foul language every day. My job is not to get those guys to stop cussing. My job is not to wag my finger at them when they cuss. My job is to love them where they’re at. When the guys in my shop learned I had to remove the language from my book, they laughed. “You can’t even say “hell” or “damn”?” Nope. In my opinion, I think an occasional “hell” or “damn” would bring realism to the story. I think my co-workers would agree.
Which is why I have this quote in my sidebar — “The role of the artist is to not look away” (Akira Kurosawa). Sadly, I think much of Christian fiction is about “looking away.”
Once again, thanks for commenting, Bruce!
“The role of the artist is to not look away”. I think the quote should be changed to “the role of a mature human being is to not look away.”
I understand that there is a need for “fluff fiction” – what used to be called a “beach read”. And I have read, and sometimes stopped reading, what I consider gratuitous gore and filth because it was just that – gratuitous – not advancing the understanding of the story or the characters. But, we have turned into a nation of fluff readers – in fiction and non-fiction. Too many – christian & non-christian. Unfortunately, too many christians, like their secular counterparts, do this because they feel powerless. So they must “look away” because to do otherwise would require effort and action and possibly very serious repercussions to their already fearful lives.
I think the question is, what purpose does it serve? I think a good writer can make a scene horrifying without giving every detail. It’s almost thinking of yourself as an editor working on a movie–when do you cut away? Do you give just enough detail to make it real, or try to make the viewer suffer a bit? Spielberg did an amazing job creating fear without showing the shark for most of the running time of Jaws. And that was by necessity–the mechanical shark wouldn’t work right most of the time. Similarly, maybe the rules of Christian fiction should be taken as a challenge that a good writer can overcome.
Mark, I agree that “a good writer can make a scene horrifying without giving every detail.” But does that mean we should never give the gory details? By the end of Jaws, there was enough blood and body parts to make the viewer understand the monster was real. Well, I also want my readers to know… the monster is real. Thank you for joining the fray, Mark. Grace to you!
It sounds like you and I agree in principle. Enough detail makes it real. Too much makes it gratuitous. The line dividing them, unfortunately, is subjective.
Yes, the term is definitely relative. What’s “edgy” to one reader is tame to another.
I’ve run into a couple instances in my recent reading where CF’s Tell Imperative was so obvious it pulled me completely out of the story. I wish it was as easy as: Just write the story. Write it well.
Mike,
Your points are very well taken and I don’t think we’re as far apart in our philosophy of writing as perhaps I lead you to believe in my post. Most of my comments–particularly the one concerning “getting away”–were from my point of view as a reader, not necessarily a writer. However, having said that, as an author, I’m motivated to write stories that I’d like to read and write them in such a way as I’d like to read them–so there is a gray-shaded relation. Hence, my publisher, while a Christian house, is not CBA-bound.
I hope I didn’t communicate that I am an advocate to “sanitize stuff, avoid stuff, tone down stuff, tiptoe around stuff, and make sure things turn out okay.” Nothing could be farther from the truth. I agree wholeheartedly with your view on that. I’ve also walked away from CBA books that are overtly guilty of candy-coating “awkward” themes.
I mentioned in my comment that I try not to shy away from realism as a writer. My most recent release is based in 8th-century BC Assyria, and is actually rather stark in its portrayal of sensual, but historically accurate, themes such as temple prostitution and the grit and horror of battle–especially battle as the Assyrians were reputed to have conducted it.
Deciding what themes to address and deciding how to address them are two different things, as you know. I think that might be a discriminator in our respective posts. Fortunately, avoiding anachronisms helped me around “hell” and “damn” in my 8th-century BC work. 🙂 However, my WIP does carry that consideration.
I work in a military environment, so I appreciate your comment regarding ambiant language. As a writer, I have no delusions that by omitting foul language from my book I’m somehow going to get soldiers to stop cussing. That’s not my point for excluding profanity when I write. I just don’t like it, so I’d tend to try to deliver the fact that a gangster has a foul disposition without laying his exact verbiage out on the page. Purely subjective. Not being excessive, as you rightly say, should be avoided, but, again, “excessive” is relative, too.
Thank you for bringing up this subject. I genuinely appreciate and, to a great extent, support your position, although there are certainly some differences in our respective approaches. I’ve had these same types of discussions on secular writers’ forums, and some of them were not nearly as gracious and thoughtful as you were in your response.
Thanks again for the opportunity to comment. You’ve got a neat site here. Keep asking the hard questions. 😉
Cheers! Bruce
Word Lily,
“Just write the story. Write it well.”
Amen! Thank you. 🙂
Not that I’m in imminent danger of hijacking this thread, I’ll sit down and be quiet now…
Cheers! Bruce
Again, Mike – I want to comment, but you’ve said so many good things I agree with I’m struggling to come up with something better than “what he said!”
Here’s the key element in your argument, for me:
“We are taught as writers to SHOW not TELL. But if you’re a Christian author, that doesn’t always apply. You see, SHOWING certain things can get you into trouble. “
It comes down to choice, in my mind. Craft over doctrine (which yes, I know, may put a bulls-eye on my forehead, but so be it). The elements of craft call an author committed to quality writing to avoid weighty exposition “telling” us about situations, and to SHOW us these things, make it as active and vivid as possible.
However, all of us have to ask ourselves this: what do we wish to inspire in our readers? What images – which are so powerful, or else pornography wouldn’t be such a devastating addiction – do we want to leave behind?
I wrote a sex scene for my current novel. The character was desperately alone, reaching out, and also lost. This was a desperate act by two scarred people. It FIT with the story and characters.
So. I wrote it. Felt the scene was very well written.
Perhaps too well written. And I asked myself: is THIS something I want to inspire in readers? An image I want to leave them with? And I decided for myself that it wasn’t, removed it, and admittedly changed the scene to the classic “James Bond-fade to black”.
However, one the main characters in the novel is a stripper, and there’s a scene in a strip club. Feeling inspired by the above decision, I RADICALLY toned down that scene…but kept it. It’s so central to the story, it HAS to be there.
I think it calls for a very DEEP study into the craft itself to find answers. Regarding the gore, horror, violence and whether to show too much or not, I quote this from a recent interview with author F. Paul Wilson (http://www.repairmanjack.com):
“1. Paul, you’ve said you don’t believe in gore on the page. You prefer to make the gross/horrific stuff happen in the reader’s head. Would you tell us more about that and why it works so well?
I tend to go by the maxim that less, if done properly, is more. I’ve been through med school and a rotating internship that included surgery. I’ve dissected a human body and I’ve been up to my wrists in blood in someone’s open abdomen. Blood and gore don’t get to me. I’m more disturbed by what I don’t see.
Remember the little girl in The Leopard Man banging on the door to her house to be let in because something was following her? Remember how you thought she’d get safely inside, but she didn’t? Remember how she screamed and went silent? Remember the blood flowing under the door?
I do. And in my mind I saw worse things happening than Jacques Tourneur could ever have shown on the screen. I first saw that scene in the 1950s and I still haven’t forgotten it.
Consider this scene from FATAL ERROR, the most recent Repairman Jack novel: I’ve got a bad guy tied up in a van. He has info he’s not giving up. It’s an improvised situation. The person who’s going to get that info arrives with a paper bag labeled “Ace Hardware,” gets in the van, and closes the door.
I don’t need to take you into the van for the details. The Ace Hardware bag is unsettling, but what’s really chilling about the scene is that the person with the bag is an ordinary housewife whose little boy was seriously hurt by this man. No fury like a woman scorned … but a scorned woman’s fury can’t hold a candle to that of the mother of a brutalized child. No, you do not want to be in that van.”
This where I am in my writing. Less is more, if done right. But I’ll admit, and am willing to admit this is a CRAFT choice for me, not doctrine.
Link for full interview: http://joannaslan.blogspot.com/2010/08/its-my-story-damn-it-interview-with-f.html
Well put, Kevin. There’s an intensely acute element to subtlety, oxymoronic as it seems.
I totally agree, Kevin, that “suggested” horror (or sex, criminality, violence, etc.) can be very effective. Which is why I prefer “psychological” horror over gore. And from a craft perspective, you’re right — it takes more skill to be effectively “suggestive” than to be explicit. Nevertheless, I think there are times when explicit scenes can punctuate our stories.
When I was reading your comments, for some reason I kept thinking about the movie Paranoid Park, from Gus Van Sant. I loved that movie! Atmospheric, thoughtful. And disturbing. Mainly because of one scene, near the middle of the film, where a man was accidentally killed in a gruesome way. The filmmaker showed everything, an overhead shot even, albeit quickly (probably no more than two seconds). That image stuck in my brain and rattled me for the next few days. I couldn’t shake it. It nailed the story into place in a way that not showing it, couldn’t have. Was it explicit? Yes! Was it necessary? Absolutely!
Kevin, thanks so much for your thoughts. I really appreciate you taking time to visit and comment here!
Edgy Christian fiction is a tough sell. How do I know? No bigger publishing houses would pick up my novels because of the “showing” I do. The best example is Never Without Hope. It’s on camera adultery in all of it’s reality, both good and bad. And it’s the woman doing the cheating. I’m told by readers it’s the edgiest book out there. And she doesn’t just see the guy and sin once. No, it’s more like six or seven times, and yes, all in the book. Then when her husband finds out, her life explodes in her face, some not nice names are used (yes, bad ones) and I think I captured reality pretty well. You should try it. I’m told it’s the edgiest there is out there in the Christian reader’s world. Reviews on Amazon seem to concur. Just sayin’. I also have a showing “rape” from what the gal remembers (but she was so drunk when it happened it’s still a bit fuzzy) in It’s Not About Him. I’ve had some people say my YA books are too edgy. Teens who read a lot, however, see them as mild compared to secular books. Who knows…?
So do you think some Christian fiction is genuinely “edgy”?
Some, yes. But again to repeat your premise: edgy is not equally defined by people, both Christian and unbeliever. One person’s “edgy” is another person’s “fluff”.
Do you agree that the term is relative?
Yes. By your own definition above you referred to “edgy” implying an edge as in a cliff. Which would also imply that you get right to “edge” of that cliff and teeter there without going over it, but you also implied you prefer toppling over the edge in some cases.
Do you think Christian fiction can get any “edgier” and still remain “Christian”?
Definitely. But not all of it. Some of it isn’t designed to approach the edge. For the escapist readers, the “sheltered” readers: right or wrong, for the fluff readers–they need their stories, too. Some readers have been over the edge in their lives and can’t handle experiencing it again.
And do you think it’s possible to remain true to a story without sometimes showing explicit elements?
Yes with some stories. Depends on the genre. Depends on the intent of the author.
It’s often a Catch-22, isn’t it, Mike? What some view as explicit just isn’t to others. What some view as over-the-top gratuitous just isn’t to others. I just don’t think it’s fair to put parameters on the incidentals, but then what’s incidental to one isn’t to another. And the beat goes on . . .
“These books might be ‘edgy’ in relation to CBA standards, but as someone who works in the construction field and reads pretty widely, they really aren’t.”
Heh heh.
There was a lot of hype over the violence in “The Passion of the Christ.” While I didn’t enjoy watching it, I needed to see it. Why? I needed to see it to truly understand the physical and emotional agony Christ went through. I’ve only watched it once. If I watch the movie again, I may shut my eyes. To some it may seem “gratuitous”, but it served a purpose for me and I’m sure many others.
I’ve been avoiding the news lately, but the other day I finally read about the floods in Pakistan and looked at the pictures. It was painful to read and to look at those images, but sometimes we have to. Most of us in the US have warm beds and hot showers (not all). We can easily surround ourselves with all that is comfortable and tell ourselves we are living a “pure” life. Are we living pure lives or are we shielding ourselves from the often horrendous pain of this world? We can’t dwell on pain constantly, but we need to be reminded. Otherwise we forget to love the lost and the needy.
As for the people you counseled and the issues they were facing, I have no doubt. It’s around us more than we think. People who feel stuck in those situations need to know they aren’t alone…that no sin is unforgiveable…that someone else understands and has experienced the rawness of their pain. That rawness can be expressed in fiction. It may not make us comfortable, but it’s situational truth. And it’s the kind of stuff God looks at 24/7.
My father was a pastor and missionary for some 60 years. You can believe he heard everything possible from the people he ministered to. I heard about some of it growing up, but certainly not all and that’s as it should be. The behaviors you mention certainly happen, but that doesn’t mean everyone needs or wants to hear all about it.
What makes a book Christian is that its author is a believer. All authors, Christian or not, should deal with important themes of universal significance. To be true to the faith, Christian authors should write whatever they write about redemptively. It has been proven that nothing is taboo to put into a book, so no one has anything to prove any more. Write what you are given to write.
A brief note on “show, don’t tell.” That’s absurd. It works for TV and movie scripts. Novels must always combine showing and telling. Just look at the Harry Potter books, especially the later, more complex ones.
Please visit my blog and leave a comment. Thanks!
A brief note on “show, don’t tell.” That’s absurd.
I’m going to have to politely disagree with you on this, David. As far as I’m concerned, good fiction uses “show” as little as possible. Does that imply that lots of fiction sold today isn’t written very well? Sure. I’m comfortable with that assertion.
The problem is not with the term “edgy” Christian fiction. I think it is more of an internal problem with some of the Christians. Especially the ones who want to dictate and control the moral compass of the general population of other Christians.
The difference I’m beginning to see when I compare CBA and “secular” fiction is that CBA is so enmeshed that for whatever reason one sub-genre cares (and is vocally loud and brash) about what another sub-genre is doing. When I go to a horror conference (just got back from one) there aren’t Harlequin writers there telling me the stories we print are too disturbing, scary, bloody, deliquent. And I’m not going to an RWA conference telling them they’re selling smutty, fru-fru, girly crap.
So.
If that were the case within CBA, these discussions wouldn’t be relevant.
But it also doesn’t help that agents within the CBA walls tell people “Christian horror will never be a reality in the CBA” then ask people to write stories within the genre–and in the same breath tell authors they shouldn’t be chasing the market.
What the CBA needs is a huge dose of reality.
Michelle, I think your point about CBA sub-genres being “enmeshed” is important. In fact, I think the largest sub-genre in the Christian market — women’s fiction — pretty much dictates the standards for the other sub-genres. Because the market is geared to those 80% women’s fiction buyers, we simply import their guidelines. Like it or not, this is why it’s reasonable to approach Christian fiction as one single genre.
Because, of course, women *only* read women’s fiction. Just like they stay home, bare-footed and pregnant, cooking for their man, serving him diligently, rubbing his feet after his hard day at work, minding their manners, keeping their mouths shut, wearing their dresses, drinking tea in pretty little cups, keeping their house clean, and being June Cleaver.
Because, of course, being a Christian woman should look like Mrs. Cleaver in Leave it to Beaver land.
Oh wait. Is my sarcasm leaking again?
🙂
(I’m working while my husband is home with the toddler…and dinner will be ready when I get home.
Actually, that’s not necessarily how I want it. I’m just trying to learn to accept it. So, yeah…I hear ya…I feel a bit of an outcast at times.)
This blog post is getting way to edgy for me 🙂
The problem is that we are trying to universally define something that me and my closest friends can’t even agree on.
I hate rules, so the only thing I can say to you all as a reader, is that
a) There is definitely a line that I don’t want crossed in my CF.
b) I can not define that line. I only know it once I read it.
Eesh. Where to land on this?
A part of me wants to say “show anything and everything, if the story calls for it,” (save for the prurient things that make p0rnography what it is). Most of us commenting here live in an insulated culture that is free from much of the physical violence and suffering that has plagued the world in less developed times. Most of us don’t even kill animals for our own food anymore. An argument could be made that Christians are doing the rest of the world a disservice by NOT reminding us of our collective potential for depravity — a potential that has been mitigated by the Western rule of law, affluence, and technology.
The other part of me wonders how much we’re trying to please non-Christians instead of pleasing God. Are our stories reflective of some truth, theological or natural, or are we just going for the cheap sell for the itching ears (eyes)?
The former part of me is winning out, because the gospel is offensive enough already without having to super-Christianize our writing. It doesn’t work, anyways…how much better are Tolkein’s LOTR or Lewis’ (severely unnoticed) space trilogy than Left Behind? Trying to be too sanitized doesn’t offend; it just bores everyone else.
The other part of me wonders how much we’re trying to please non-Christians instead of pleasing God.
I’ve heard this A LOT, and it frustrates me, a little. (Not at you, Jay. Just in general). I couldn’t care a less what the “world” or “non-Christians” think of my work, up to this point: that I’ve told a good story that engages in “suspense of disbelief” and makes people believe the tale, is something they can relate to. Now, that opens a whole OTHER can of worms about trying to predict readers’ likes and dislikes, so we won’t even go there, BUT…
I don’t want to “show” a lot and be “edgy” because I want to please the world or make a quick buck (anyone IN publishing, even with bigger houses, knows that money is scarce these days for everyone). To be quite frank, if I find that my storytelling fits in at a CBA house I’d love to publish exclusively with them, because what I’ve seen so far in my brief immersion in the secular market, from a business standpoint, makes me shudder. With the exception of a few small presses – Shroud, Apex, to name a few – I’d much rather do publishing business with most Christian houses than secular houses.
It has to do with ME as a writer and person. My life hasn’t been easy. No bed of roses. No tragedies either, but 90% of CBA novels don’t even engage ME – a life-long Christian raised in a fundamental Baptist home – because I can’t even believe most these people exist. Maybe I’m a little moody as a person, also; and that’s reflected in my work.
Plus, my fiction is DRIVEN by my creative impulses (which again, we could argue that a Christian writer should be driven by doctrine only), and when I feel that drive shackled, it no longer becomes fiction or art. It becomes a homework assignment, and I cancel out. Which is why, quite frankly, I very rarely read CBA books. I just check out.
But its ME. My life. My experiences. My fears, my failures, mistakes, my WORST NIGHTMARES – along with my hopes and dreams and love and victories and faith – that drive my writing. NOT a desire to “sell out”. No offense to you Jay, but I really think that defense is getting old, and is flimsy.
I remember one of the very few CBA novels that knocked me askew. “Visitation”, by Frank Perretti. At the time, it was the most challenging, DIFFERENT CBA novel I’d read. Talking to a fellow Christian about it, my friend made a slightly disgusted face and said, “Eh. Weird book. Seems like he was working out some of his personal issues, in that one.”
Of course. And I, for one, can deal with that. Almost prefer it, as long as the author’s personal issues don’t overwhelm the dictates of the story.
“No offense to you Jay, but I really think that defense is getting old, and is flimsy.”
No offense taken, since it wasn’t really a defense from me, just the “other side” to where I was leaning.
Cool. I just didn’t want you to think I was gunning it at you…
Yowza! I checked back to see comments and see there are a ton. I’m going to have to set aside some time this week to come back and read them all. If it’s feasible to do it here, can we narrow the “edgy” conversation down to one concrete book? I really am trying to understand the “edgy” argument.
Wholly apart from these discussions, someone recommended Charles Martin to me, and this author was mentioned in this blog post. I just finished reading “Wrapped In Rain” (general fiction). It’s published by WestBow (2005)–I am uncertain if that’s considered a secular imprint or not. Though it is a divison of Thomas Nelson. So to give me a concrete example, if you’ve read this book, do you consider it edgy and why? Or why not?
Brenda, I haven’t read Charles Martin, though I’ve heard many good things about his writing. As far as how edgy he is, I couldn’t say. I know some of his books are published by Thomas Nelson. So them being “Christian” probably limits the explicit elements significantly. At least, that’s my guess. Thanks for staying with the conversation!
Oooh. Lots of good stuff here from Mike and all the commenters! After lurking and watching for a day, here are some thoughts.
Mike, I think the answer is you need to write an edgy Amish novel! Preferably with vampires. Sparkly ones need not apply. Or a zombie mash-up ala the new Jane Austin versions!
I wish we could rename some of this. For the people who like the nicer stories that are clean and uplifting, I’d like to see the term “inspirational fiction” used for them. The term Christian fiction is too vague. It’s like Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) – it encompasses musicians from Phillips, Craig, and Dean to Switchfoot to Skillet. How can CCM be a genre? I personally can’t stand PCD, but I’m sure a lot of their listeners don’t want to crank up Skillet. It goes back to the sub-genre comments, which were good points. Of course, then what do we do with the “Christian fiction” label?
because the gospel is offensive enough already without having to super-Christianize our writing. It doesn’t work, anyways…how much better are Tolkein’s LOTR or Lewis’ (severely unnoticed) space trilogy than Left Behind? Trying to be too sanitized doesn’t offend; it just bores everyone else.
I *like* this comment Jay. We walk a tightrope. We can offend Christians if we don’t toe the doctrinal line, but Jesus is a stumbling block and offense to the world. We are going to struggle in this. It is inherent in this niche.
One last thought – if the fiction is going to be “gritty” or “edgy”, then it needs to do it well. I reviewed one book where the bad guy is doing all sorts of gory stuff. It didn’t match the overall tone of the book and wasn’t done well. I’ve never been able to forget how that killed the story itself for me.
Great post! I’ve said it before, but I love the conversations going on in this blog. They resonate pretty strongly with me. This question is something I struggle with in my own writing. I am a follower of Christ but I also feel the need for authentic fiction (kind of a funny word combo, I suppose) in the sense that the characters and their stories must be real, or the whole thing will be contrived.
When I was interviewing around Texas to be a youth minister, I remember being sidelined by a parent board who asked me if I watched rated R movies. My response was the same as it always has been: if the book of Genesis – which includes incest, rape, adultery, murder, and the destruction of most of the human race – was made into a movie, it would be stamped with an R rating, no question. The Bible doesn’t shy away from these characters and all of their wretchedness, so I don’t know why our writing should, either.
Obviously, there is a line in there somewhere that crosses over into gratuitous, but it’s the same as any other part of writing – when does it serve the writing, and when does it not?
how this for edgy? i wrote a novel entitled Euclid Avenue Our scars mean something. in actuality, it is about my life, the 1st 24 yrs, however it is written in the true novel genre in that it has no proper names, dates or specific locations. the book begins at the age of 4 when i discovered my dead baby brother’s body floating face down in the bathtub. the remaining childhood years were filled with parental neglect, deceit, theft and manipulation. full time employment began at age 12. the teenage years were characterized by experimentation to habits to addictions that culminated in a wager that resulted in a loveless marriage that ended in divorce and nearly in death. finally, an outrageous conversation leads to redemption.
excerpts can be read on facebook in the photo album, the profile page and on bookdaily.com. the book is available through amazon, barnes & noble, books & co, books-a-million and others.
the culprit in the drowning incident is still alive and at large even though the 50th anniversary of the death is next year.
I think we’re dealing with two things. There are edgy topics–like the ones mentioned, that are often taboo in CBA. But just because a writer talks about these topics doesn’t make the writing or book edgy. It’s the treatment that defines that to me. I’ve seen some Christian books tackle “edgy ” topics in a sterile pat way that “un-edgifies” them (yes, I just made up that word) and some have offended me by their manner of handling (such as abortion, but I won’t mention titles as I’ll get curcified here). Then there is the edginess that comes through in the style and sturcture of the book. I consider my new release, Somone to Blame a bit edgy for that reason. It leans more toward post-modern because I don’t present easy, pat answers for the tragedies of life. I have gritty characters who do vile things as sympathetic, for I feel we all are sinners and even god sees the potential in those we might classify as evil or unredeemable. It’s a good discussion and tend to avoid calling anything edgy. I admire writers who can appraoch touchy subjects with authenticity and honesty, and that’s what I look for. I don’t want to read edgy to be rattled by controversy. Hope this makes sense. And if anyone would like to give my novel a try and see if it’s edgy enough for them, check out http://www.someonetoblame.com
Yes, Susanne, in relation to the current Christian market I think an unorthodox story style could constitute something edgy (perhaps “nontraditional” would simply be a better phrase), and portraying a “vile” character in a sympathetic light could also push the boundaries of what is currently the norm. For me, however, a genuinely edgy Christian novel would be one that challenged the traditional taboos against showing sex and language. Thanks for visiting and congrats on your book!
What? I’m not edgy? This might explain why I still have to use a knife to cut bread. Maybe someday.
The only thing I question here, Mike, is that line: “my edgy is your obscene.” I don’t doubt that what you have in mind would be classified as obscene by some … but you don’t really think of that as edgy, do you? It would take more in your book than an honestly reported construction site conversation to merit that tag, I suspect.
If you can remember back a few years, I once attempted a descriptive chart of “edginess” based on the show/tell spectrum, mainly because I enjoyed the irony of tweaking people so committed to the rules with such an obvious exception to them. Nothing is edgy apart from context. Will Smith, in Fresh Prince days, could come off as edgy by wearing his school blazer inside out … but merely possessing a school blazer would take the edge off in most contexts. The same with books. You’d have to go pretty far afield, out past American Psycho territory, to own that label in any real sense … and I’m not sure it would be a label worth pursuing for its own sake. (Though the label I’ve been getting is “gritty,” which I take to be Edgy 2.0.)
What I value above any notion of edginess is creativity and artistic risk. I like to see authors rise to a technical challenge, to give a bravura performance on the page. If you can deliver that, you’re golden. If not, no amount of low level transgressiveness can save you.
Sorry, Mark. “Gritty” suits you better anyway. While I get your point about “context” determining what is edgy, I think Christians and nonChristians approach edgy differently. For the “secular” reader or film-goer, what they call edgy we call “evil,” “over-the-top” or “vile.” We Christians bring a different set of “edgy” standards… like thou shalt not say “shit.” So I think the “context” issue has as much to do with our current publishing milieu as it does with the particular stories we are telling. And if it helps, I don’t think of myself as edgy. I’m abrasive.
And if it helps, I don’t think of myself as edgy. I’m abrasive.
I’m sorry. That line is awesome.
I came across this edgy Christian fiction concept a few years ago and, at the time, liked its potential as a description of what many people were writing. I figured that the fact that science fiction and fantasy was/ is not widely accepted in the CBA Christian fiction market rendered the genre _edgy_.
There is no all-encompassing definition of edgy Christian fiction. To paraphrase what I said in a 2008 article, edgy is a connotative adjective and the manner in which it is employed is determined by one’s experiences with and expectations for fiction.
I do believe that edgy CF does exist, but that the concept has evolved over time. For example, at the time of its release, Ted Dekker’s Thr3e was considered way out there. By the time I read it, a few years later, I was disappointed in his action scenes–the threats of violence, for instance, never come to fruition. Tension was high as conflict loomed, but by the end of the book the reader is tired of waiting for action to happen.
What once was considered edgy no longer fits today’s description.
From the blurbs I’ve read of Michelle Sutton’s novels, they certainly appear to qualify as edgy.
I also think that Eric Wilson’s _Field of Blood_ is edgy. Wilson never shies from showing the grit in this novel. No threats, just action.
Heck, I’ve even had readers tell me that my writing is edgy–in fact, too edgy for a Christian novelist (I think they meant gritty, but whatever).
Perhaps edgy should be defined in terms of the market to which the novel is meant to appeal.
Seems like “edgy” is being resurrected after it faded away some years ago. Back in 2006 I went on a bit of a rant against its use in regard to Christian fiction. Here’s a sample from one post:
You go, Mike! 😉
Becky
In case anybody hasn’t heard the joke definition, here it is:
“EDGY (TM) Christian Fiction is where the Pious Polly Purebread heroine Actually Takes Off Her Bonnet at the end.”
If anyone is interested you can see the entire discussion Mark Bertrand started about “edgy” Christian fiction (along with my objection to the term 😉 at FIF and my specific rant about the term here.
Becky
Perhaps this goes without saying… but if a Christian writer writes starts writing “edgy” Christian fiction (of the kind this post seems to refer), isn’t it more likely that Christian fiction publishers would just deem it NOT “Christian fiction”. Then it ends up as a Christian writer writing fiction and no “Christian” publishing terms attached.
Is fiction “Christian” just because the writer is Christian and they include some of their world-view within their writing, or is there some standard by which they cannot include certain content in order to be considered “Christian Fiction”… Who decides that but the publishers? I (as a Christian) could write anything I want and call it “Christian fiction”, but if a Christian publisher disagrees- it’s not.
I guess I just don’t understand where the boarders of Christian fiction are in the first place and who decides them. It seems to me that it just depends on what kind of reader the writer is writing for… Christians or not.
Well, I think you’re illustrating my point here, Andy. The issue is “Who’s defining what Christian Fiction is?” As I mentioned in one of the above comments, the Christian fiction market consists of 80% women’s fiction. The predominant demographic is white, middle-aged, conservative evangelicals. Apparently, this 80% sets the “tone” for the other 20%. So if we use the industry’s standard, the primary determinants of what makes a work “Christian” is some combination of the following: (1) A clear faith element, (2) A Christian character, (3) Adherence to industry guidelines (non-explicit language or sex. ) I am free to call anything “Christian fiction.” But what the industry and the market deem “Christian” is another story. Hey, thanks so much for visiting, Andy!
Andy,
This is where it gets tricky. Even though Sheaf House is a Christian publisher, my two YA books (It’s Not About Me and It’s Not About Him) always get stocked with the secular teen fiction. That’s where I find them when I see them in stores. I have no clue why that is. But when I tried to sell my adultery story to some big NY publishers they liked the story but because of the faith thread they referred my agent to their Christian division (most NY pubs have them now) and the Christian branches of the publisher said they couldn’t buy a book with sinning it in (like adultery) so it was a real catch 22. I can’t take Jesus out because the sinning character is a Christian who is making some bad choices and that is a huge part of the internal conflict. So it’s hard to place them on both the author’s side and on the publisher’s side. Believe me, I’ve gone both ways and it’s always the same…
Thanks for the responses Mike and Michelle, there’s a lot to think about here.
I also wanted to mention: I discovered your blog a month or so ago, and it’s one of the few (of too many) in my reader that regularly posts things worth reading! You always give me much food for thought and I have often ended up sharing things from your blog with my Christian book study group. Thanks!
I have two Christian fantasy books in publication, Seabird & Earthbow, which were too edgy for the usual Christian publishers whose books are stocked in Family Christian Bookstores.
In my case, some of my protagonists or main characters are not Christians–at least at the beginning of the story–and therefore do acts that they will later regret. And which is some cases would never be in a regular Christian novel.
In addition, my villains aren’t sanitized, i.e. acting almost like Christians. Finally, I do show violence since there’s a war on, but I try hard not to show anything too graphic or gratuitous. I push the edge on one brief romantic scene in Earthbow.
Back before either books was published, Seabird won 3rd in the Genesis Contest, sponsored by the American Christian Fiction Writers. I tried every agent and most of the publishers who were headed to the ACFW conference that year. None of them would touch my manuscript. At the same time, I had no luck with secular agents. I don’t know but some may have objected to the Christian characters & content.
The only reason that Seabird & Earthbow were ever published was because of a start-up indie press, Gryphonwood. Other small indie Christian presses are taking up the slack when it comes to publishing Christian fiction with any kind of edginess to it–i.e. Christian fiction where the characters and situations actually resemble reality. Just for two examples, see March Lord and Splashdown.
My books mostly sell at Amazon, B&N, and Smashwords, where they are largely treated as “secular” except by many of the reviewers. I’ve managed to get Seabird into two local bookstores, where they are shelved with regular speculative fiction. I haven’t tried to get them into a Christian bookstore, because I’m quite sure they would not be accepted. You see, they’re not published by one of the “established” Christian publishers.
I am convinced that Christian indie is the wave of the future. As for the writers of such manuscript, you might be interested in the Lost Genre Guild.
I dunno. The whole topic bothers me and I’m trying to think of why. I’ll give it a shot:
First–define “edgy”. As many better writers on here have said, “edgy” is completely relative. I think “Friday the 13th” is funny. My mom thinks Friday the 13th was farted out of hell. So there. Actually, the fact that I just wrote “fart” is probably edgy to my mother. But that’s not what bothers me. One man’s edgy is Mike Duran’s leisurely Sunday nap.
At the end of the day, it’s just another label and I feel burdened by labels enough as it is. If the dissent comes from feeling that non-Amish-loving people are sorely under-represented in the CBA, okay. That’s just facts. We’re a group that doesn’t get our entertainment needs met. I am with you 100%. As a writer in the Christian film market, I’ve said the same thing over in that neighborhood for over a decade. I AM the guy who likes monsters. And there are no Christian produced movies about monsters–and I mean good, gnarly, slimy, Stan Winston-style monsters. Growing up, save for Frank Peretti, there were no CBA books about monsters–and even his were a bit lighter on the monster side than I liked. Dude, I want “The Monster Squad” with a message of hope in Christ. That’s what I want. I never saw that in CBA–not saying it’s not there, I’m just saying I personally didn’t see it sitting on a shelf in front of me. So, naturally, I WROTE it. Now the book’s sitting in a CBA house, ready to hit the shelves, giving some ten year old kid like me something to read on a Saturday afternoon. That’s groovy to me.
But my meager attempt at bringing some “monster matinee” to the CBA might not be considered “edgy enough” to some and I think that’s where my problem with these kinds of conversations rests. Maybe I’m just taking it wrong, but it seems that the conversation (not here, perhaps, but other places I’ve seen it) changes from “Aw, man, there’s nothing in the CBA market that speaks to me personally” to “you’re not edgy enough, loser. You’re afraid to take chances, you CBA-whipped mama’s boy” (an exaggeration, but you get the point). Then it becomes about impressing people–“See! I’m edgy! I had a guy get his face ripped off! Doesn’t that make me edgy? Please approve of my edginess!”. I’ve defended my writing since I’ve begun, to almost everyone (yes, including my mother). I don’t need one more person to defend it to. I set out to write “The Coming Evil” for my not-so-silent-inner adolescent, and if it falls in the category of “edgy” for some folks so be it. It’s gonna be tame to some on here because I don’t have full frontal and an f-bomb raid, but it might still have relevance. It might still hold some worth.
It’s a complaint I hear in the horror world all the time. “What?! It’s rated PG-13?! Aw, man, that movie’s gonna suck! A horror movie’s only good if it’s rated R!!” Being Rated R doesn’t make something good. Being good makes something good–which I know you agree with, Mike. Not leveling at you, just a general eye-rolling at the sentiment held by the “if it’s not R it’s crap” crowd.
Maybe it’s all in my head. I’m ate up with fear that people won’t approve of my writing. I still write what I want to write *anyway*, but I worry afterwards if anyone’s gonna like it. I feel like I’ve overcome a pretty big hurdle getting a monster book–with real, flesh-eating monsters that are not zombies or sparkly vampires–into the CBA, but now the hurdle is it’s not graphic enough for the “Edgy Christian Fiction Reader”? It’s not raw enough? I’m not against “the edgy”, I just think, if we’re not careful, that becomes the goal–or a measuring stick used to judge its merit–rather than the natural progression of the story.
Anyway. I think there was a point in there somewhere. Rant over. Soap box going back into storage. :p
One more plea. Can we please stop calling stories that push against Biblical or traditional Christian ethics and morality “edgy.” Words have meaning. If someone outside the Christian community read that a particular story was “edgy,” they’d expect to find something that pushed to the edge of society at large, not a subset of society. We might as well call an Amish story that had the character decide not to wear her prayer covering “edgy,” because it would be to that subset of society. To society at large, it would be laughable. That’s exactly what Christian writers who proclaim their fiction “edgy” are setting themselves up for.
Becky
I wrote an article last year on “What is Christian Fantasy: A Definition and a Challenge”. While I don’t get directly into the “edgy” issue, I do touch on it, and while I am focused on “fantasy”, what I say applies to fiction in general.
http://www.epictales.org/blog/robertblog.php/2010/08/05/what-is-christian-fantasy
Any comments are welcome!
-Robert
But as someone who spent 11 years in the ministry, I think our PG worldview is flat outta touch.
PG? More like Hard G — in Christianese, PG is Too Edgy.
“Edgy” depends on the audience you’re targeting. It is an overused term, but I think for Christians it tends to mean “anything the CBA won’t accept.” So using a cuss word, or even hinting that two people might have had sex is “edgy.” But as a Christian writer, if your intended audience is teens in the general market, an occasional cuss word would not only not be edgy, but boarding on unrealistic for some of them.
Then there is just accounting for people’s tastes. Personally, I don’t like cussing in my movies and books. To me, because of where I come from, it feels unreal to me. I don’t hear people cussing up a storm very often. I do hear a cuss word every once in a while, and I’m surrounded by professing Christians at work. It’s funny, though, because if they hear me say what they thing is a cuss word, they are shocked. Just the other day, I said, “What the….” but didn’t add on the next word, just that much of the phrase. And one of them, who tends to cuss occasionally but not often, said, “What did you say?” It’s because they never hear me cuss and they know I used to be a pastor. Even hinting at a cuss word by me they would consider “edgy” even though they fully accept it in their own lives.
As far as the CBA goes, my books go beyond edgy. I guess in that market, I’ve totally leaped off the cliff. But my intention with this book about to come out isn’t so much to reach them, as it is to reach older teens who deal with sexual situations in many cases, or contemplate it. So many, including Christian teens, lose their virginity so early in life, and usually not through marriage, that I felt they needed to have a protagonist who struggled with those questions. And my plot required, at one point, taking her right up before the act, because something happens at that point that totally changes the direction of the story. That required showing everything leading up to that.
I had two lines to balance there. One, I didn’t want to be anymore tantalizing than I had to be. Two, I wanted to show it realistically, the desire, the passion, otherwise any teen reading it would automatically reject it as unreal, not what they experience. And of course, not everyone is going to be comfortable or happy with where I drew that line. But I felt it was necessary to show that.
Earlier in the book, a married couple do have sex, and at a certain point, I do the break away when it’s obvious where it’s headed. I had no reason to show that, but I did need to let the reader understand that it was happening, and in the situation I had, it would have been totally unrealistic if they didn’t think about and want to do that. But I know that by CBA standards, that alone, not to mention the former, would be way too “edgy” for them. But if we are to witness to the other audience, the world, about Christian values, we have to show what is realistic in their world.
I would also like to point out about the Bible being an R rated book. Really it’s not. It’s more of a PG-13 book. Yes, it doesn’t hide from the reality of life, in that it mentions all the sins done by man and woman. But it rarely if ever *shows* any graphic details that would make it R rated. It doesn’t give us detailed, passionate, accounts of those acts. So it really isn’t R rated.
But I would agree, if Hollywood were to get a hold of those stories, they’d probably make them R rated on the screen. But that’s quite different than the Bible being R rated itself. Naturally its purpose is a bit different from a novel fiction story. It’s purpose isn’t to immerse the reader into a alternate world, it is to speak to my life directly. So there’s no need to “show” all that. It would distract from the purpose. It’s not trying to entertain us like our stories should be doing.
Some good comments in here as we deal with this. Thanks, Mike.
Rick, good comments. One of your last sentences struck me (happy to say, there’s no evidence that it left a concussion, though. 😆 ): [The Bible’s] not trying to entertain us like our stories should be doing. Since much of what you talked about was sex, I had to wonder just how much we should want to entertain our readers with sex.
I, like you, am aiming to address some prevailing attitudes about promiscuity. It’s not easy.
I’ve read a book or two that seem to have the same goal, but I thought they crossed the line into entertaining, not-quite sex—a la Stephenie Meyers, I suppose. Lots of lust and making out. Just no bedroom scenes. Is this the direction we want to go? (And no, this is not “edgy” by our culture’s standards. I’m just not so sure we should worry about our culture’s standards as much as we should pay attention to God’s standards. [Now that was a loaded statement. 😉 ])
Becky
Becky,
Yes, pretty loaded. 🙂
Naturally I would agree that we don’t want to only entertain, no matter *how* that gets accomplished. And though some might consider that scene I wrote “soft porn” to a degree because I show the passion of the moment, I’m certainly not looking to entertain through lust and such. I’m only showing it because I have to in order for the plot to work, and if I don’t make it realistic enough, anyone reading it will dismiss it. By secular standards, it’s pretty non-edgy. But by CBA standards, I’m way out there. And I agree with the sentiments that as a Christian writer, I’m not going by what is culturally acceptable.
That said, if we write fiction, the first goal has to be to entertain. That doesn’t preclude more foundational and underlying goals which are more important to inform and dictate how that comes about, but the truth is, if our story doesn’t entertain, it accomplishes two things. One, we will not reach very many, if any, with the underlying message. Two, the lack of good story-telling will not glorify God, which too often happens in a lot of Christian fiction. I know you would agree with those, not saying them because I think you don’t, but to set the stage for what I’m about to say.
Good storytelling involves creating tension and resolution. In Christian storytelling, that frequently means showing sin and its consequences, and the repentance from that sin, and restoration, in some form or fashion. The issue is, effectively keep the reader in the story, i.e., entertained, means showing that building tension, whatever that sin is. How far is too far?
We wouldn’t want to do a story where the underlying issue is how hate and unforgiveness can destroy a life, and fail to show a person hating another in all its ugliness. I bet we could find some CBA books that do a good job of showing that sin. And it would hurt the entertainment value, the building of tension, to only tell that, and not show the ugliness. The resolution wouldn’t be as powerful.
The end result for me as a writer, and this will vary from writer to writer as well, is that I feel I show of that sin only what I have to show for the plot to work and be realistic enough that the resolution will have as equally a profound affect. Show any more than that, and it becomes gratuitous, put there to entice and such, which is not what a Christian should be doing to write it.
I honestly didn’t ever thing I would write such a scene, as I intended never to tackle something along the lines of prostitution, for instance. And I believe we also need to have those in our stories who are doing the right thing. Not some goodie, perfect, protagonist, but do demonstrate among the people messing up, that some do get it right. For that to be realistic, that needs to be there as well.
But this plot sort of fell into my lap, and actually my daughter was going through some things similar, so I guess it was in the back of my mind. I don’t expect this book to convince anyone necessarily, but I hope it will make people tempted or in the midst of such sin to take a second look, a different perspective, and consider what they are doing to themselves and others. Whether it accomplishes that, I don’t know. But that will be in God’s hands. All I can do is tell the story.
So I guess that was a long way to say, we entertain by telling a story where we have emotional tension built up, and then resolved. The Christian part of that is in showing what directions that tension gets resolved in. Show only what has to be shown to make the sin, evil, darkness, “real” to the reader, to build up for that tension.
Becky, I agree with your point about not using “our culture’s standards” as the judge of what’s edgy. But I think you’re mistaken to suggest that Christian fiction is necessarily being constrained by “God’s standards.” The Christian fiction industry says “Thou shalt not show sex and language.” However, SHOWING someone violating “God’s standards” (as the Bible often does) can be a tool for reinforcing those standards. I think we should be careful pitting the “culture’s standards” against “God’s standards.” In reality, when it comes to Christian fiction, we are dealing with neither. It’s “Christian culture’s standards” that have produced the taboos that frame “edgy.” We should not interpret “God’s standards” for how we should live as “God’s standards” for what we should write. The command to “Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth” (Eph. 4:29) applies to me as a person, but not necessarily my characters.
I never really penned for Christian culture but if they are waiting to go down the rabbit hole they will know where to find me but I was doing what you guys did for years. I wrote of ghoulish subject matter addressing real issues (and scaring a shit ton along the way.) The Bible has traits of an R-Rated book but like what you said it’s PG-13 but the King James Only Movement we need to realize the nightmare they are as much as they are eager to share their faith. Though I will say it’s more Twilight Zone than Christianity.
Great comment, Mike. Here is a good example. One college freshman read my book It’s Not About Me and said that she had planned to wait until marriage, but after reading this story she was more convinced than ever that she was doing the right thing by waiting. So it reinforced that value. I find it weird that Christians will think that reading about something edgy will want to make teens go out and sin. I don’t think adults give teens enough credit. How about writing a story about someone messing up, but showing the consequences in such as way as to be realistic so the teen can see the story as if it’s playing out for them. Then they will have their values reinforced, not corrupted. Ironically there were a few parents of home schooled teens who didn’t think their kids could handle the reality of my second book in the series, but when a junior in a secular high school won the book and posted a review, she referred to it as a sweet story. Apparently because I didn’t have the F word it in and sicko things happening it was a sweet story. Who’d a thought… It’s all in the eyes of the reader anyway. That’s what I see based on my feedback so far. And honestly, teens are not as clueless as their parents think, so why not give them a story with godly values tucked in the pages while delivering a compelling story at the same time. Maybe it will help some teens prevent those mistakes in their own lives.
Hi, Mike.
Just to clarify—I don’t think the Christian fiction industry is constrained by God’s standards. I think primarily, as it is now, “what sells to our target market” is what constrains Christian fiction.
I think what should constrain the Christian writer is God’s standards (whether writing for the general market or for the Christian market), and of course that’s not something easy to determine. I hope, though, that this is the issue we Christian writers wrestle with, not with how much sex can I show to entertain my readers and still be published by a Christian house?
Becky
Thanks for clarifying, Becky. You’re right, determining God’s standards for the individual Christian author is most important. As with all personal standards, we must be careful to not superimpose them on others. Market “standards” are another thing. I will say this: Any Christian author who shows sex simply to “entertain” is probably veering from anything substantially “Christian.”
Really glad I stumbled upon this “conversation”….. I can identify with so many of the sentiments contained in the posts above. My thoughts center around this — the world never misses an opportunity to discuss issues of a “mature subject matter”…. and neither should Christians. Oh, we can pretend sticky, touchy, iffy situations and issues don’t exist, but if we do, our message will be ineffective and the labels “irrelevant” and “out of touch” will fit perfectly! Sin and it’s consequences are a reality. So are difficult decisions. We know the TRUTH and we owe it to mankind to effectively pass it along. And fiction is an incredible tool by which to spread that TRUTH.
I’ve written a YA novel that most likely fits the “edgy” fiction category as it deals frankly with abstinence and what I like to call “second chance” virginity. If you think Christian teens–those actively seeking a relationship with Christ AND those who just think they are Christian– aren’t having sex or participating in sexual acts, think again. My novel portrays a 17 year old guy who would do anything to turn back the clock to forever erase his past….. a past that’s been forgiven but continues to haunt his present…. and will make appearances in his future as well. The story is God’s–I just put the words onto paper. Test readers have said “very believable”, “great characters”, “excellent”; now I just have to find a publisher who agrees!
Beth, sounds like you and I write similar things and think similar thoughts as I think. 🙂 I’ve sort of touched some of those areas in two of my books and honestly, it was a tough sell even though teens (Christian and non-Christian alike) loved the stories. Right now I am trying to steer a bit away from edgy as it describes me because I am really more about reaching hurting people who need realistic fiction in order to relate to the characters and hear the message of hope and second chances. Yeah, I’ve been described as writing the edgiest edgy fiction, but since that doesn’t really show my heart, I’m refocusing my efforts to share more about healing hearts and less about the fact that some of the content in my books might make your eyebrows disappear into your hairline.
Michelle
I have and have read It’s Not About Me…. have not read the 2nd book. It definitely spoke to the passion in teenaged romances…… they are thinking about it and doing it more than most adults want to believe!
I am passionate about youth and abstinence in particular. SO MANY teens completely mess up their lives by the their sexual involvement before marriage. And SO many, after they “slip-up” adopt the attitude “I’ve already done it…. so what does it matter anymore?” repeatedly exposing themselves to more baggage and heartache not to mention pregnancy and disease. I also truly believe in mentoring and accountability–both are heavy themes in my novel. As is God’s amazing life transforming power and forgiveness. I honestly love how the story came together and how it is NOT just about teenagers and sex.
I don’t want to write or be considered “edgy” just for the sake of edginess….. I just want to be relevant, realistic and good enough that my stories are readable and enjoyed enough to be effective.
Beth, send me an email at michelle@michellesutton.net and I can give you a spot on my new blog to talk about your passion for this subject. 🙂
Mike; everyone; this is an intriguing article from an intriguing site, and got me thinking about the boundaries of Christian writing; mind you…I’d been thinking of these for some time I became a Christian relatively late, and my 37 years in the world were pretty racy! I have written a lot about them, including memoirs. Just recently I started fictionalising aspects of my past. Much of what I write though is heavily sanitised compared to how things actually were. I often wonder if this is dishonest. Also, I’m writing from recollection, including dialogue; is this dishonest? After all, I have no way of recalling the exact situations or exact dialogue: Am I mingling truth and fact? Is this dishonest? Or am I being legalistic? I also sometimes reproduce things I wrote before becoming a Christian, and some of this is really edgy! Although even at that, it’s been sanitised. Indeed, most of my pre-Christian writings and music were destroyed. But I do it to illustrate a kind of before and after type of thing. I’m conflicted about it all though: is it really necessary to dredge up aspects of my pre-salvation self? I’ve so many questions and dilemmas about being a Christian writer; I never know if I’m doing the right thing; and sometimes I feel like giving up altogether and doing something else. Any insights? (smile)
Hi, Carl, what an encouragement to hear that God saved you.
I was in a critique group with a woman who wrote her memoir. She did as you say you’re doing—fleshed out scenes with dialogue though of course she didn’t have those conversations on tape. It’s what the publishing world calls creative non-fiction. I think if it bothers you, simply put an Author’s Note at the front saying the conversations are true to the spirit of the exchange though the words are not verbatim.
As to the details you need to include. First, I don’t think I would “sanitize” so much as I would generalize. Think about the Apostle Paul. When he recounted his past life, he said things like I persecuted the church. The most detailed he got was mentioning that he held the coats of those who stoned Stephen. In other words, he did not go into graphic detail telling who and how he had persecuted those following Christ. He didn’t explicitly describe their screams or the blood pouring from their wounds. He didn’t even describe what impact those deaths or captures had on him. Instead, he stated his sin in almost clinical terms but didn’t soften it or reduce it.
Second, I think I would make it my goal to glorify Christ. Sometimes that means making known what it was that Christ saved us from. But in the telling of the “from what,” it should never be glorified.
I remember as a kid hearing some testimonies in church and thinking, Those guys got the best of both worlds. They got to live it up first, then come to Christ. I wish I could do that. I think that’s what you want to avoid—giving the impression that the passing pleasures of sin merit a closer look and perhaps a bit of experimentation.
Hope something here is helpful.
Becky
Hi Mike, everyone; as I say; great site; great topic of conversation. This is a note to Becky:
Hi Becky, thanks so much for you response to my posting, which was enormously helpful and pretty well encapsulated everything I wanted to hear. You corroborated what I thought was the best thing to do; oh and I love that term, creative non-fiction. That’s a new one to me and I’m going to use it (smile). I’m going to do just that: attach an author’s note to the effect that the conversations (and indeed recounting of events) are true to the spirit as I recall them rather than 100% accurate. Great role model the Apostle Paul, at no point did he wallow in his past; he just stated the bold facts. I may have included too much detail in my memoirs about my past. I didn’t feel too bad about it; perhaps because I never suggested that my past was anything wonderful: Also, it lasted such a short time and totally wrecked a once promising career in acting/music/entertainment! The passing pleasures of sin are great for a while, but eventually ruinous in this life, and with eternal consequences for the next.
Regarding what should and should not be glorifed: I recently tried to write some very dark “Christian” psychological thrillers/short stories. Then, after some warnings which I feel were from God, I sanitised these stories to within an inch of their life; but still a sense of “darkness” didn’t quit me: it’s as if I was being told: don’t go there. I’ve not deleted them; but I’m being urged to, sanitised as they are. perhaps I’m being stubborn but I worked so hard (smile) Thanks so much for your terrific response to my posting. God bless you Becky. Carl.
I’m glad my comments were helpful, Carl. May God show you what He wants you do do with those stories and how He wants you to write.
Becky
Alem to that, Becky, thanks again. God bless you. Carl.
This is a very interesting discussion — I’m sorry I did not discover this site sooner. Ever since I published my novel, “Each Angel Burns” I have been wondering whether it is “Christian” or not. I’ve been pleased by some of the reviews I’ve gotten from people who say that they are not Christian (in my case Catholic) and felt the novel opened their eyes to aspects of our Faith they didn’t know about. So I’m a little curious as to what actually constitutes”Christian” fiction — does the book have to adhere to certain standards (like all contemporary romance novels MUST have an HEA – happily ever after – ending). Can some of the characters use foul language and behave in highly un-Christian ways?
I was impressed by the list of things you dealt with as a counselor — any one of those could be the basis of a fascinating book. As a fiction writer my primary interest has always been writing about a good person caught in a bad situation — that dynamic interests me more than anything. But is it Christian? I don’t know.
I found this article after searching for “Christion fiction that doesn’t suck” on Google. I am so tired of Christian fiction – it’s so tame, lame, and boring. I will read through the comments to see if anyone has any good suggestions. I like a good story (“edgy” – whatever). It’s not like I love blood and guts and sex and rock n roll (even though, I do) – but to me, Christian fiction is just bland; it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
V – It cracks me up that you really searched for “Christian fiction that doesn’t suck” – I feel your pain. It’s also the reason I published a work that I spent the last few years hammering out.
This is a book that definitely gravitates to the “grittier” side of things. It now resides in a strange unmarketable state because of it’s duality. On one hand it has strong Christian themes of faith, purpose, and redemption and on the other there is graphic violence, some profanity and an implied rape(it is post-apocalyptic action adventure afterall).
For me the desire to include this difficult material is due to one of the hats that I wear: my “real” job as a police officer. Unfortunately I have been subjected to an overdose of the worst that humanity(and life) has to offer, so for me to only see the sunny side of things is unrealistic.
That being said my preference is to see the realism of the situation – the way I see it everyday – not sugar coated and turned into something less tangible. Unfortunately this is what I feel that many Christian writers do. Sugar coat. The subsequent triumph of the protagonist(and ultimately the Cross) becomes terribly muted due to the watering down of sin, evil, and conflict.
To each his own, and I respect each believer’s right to guard their hearts how they choose. Its just my preference because its what I know. It seems to me that it takes experiencing that true darkness and the sinfulness of human nature for the triumph of the light to have the impact that it should.
If you’re interested – my book is Through the Fury to the Dawn and it’s everything you want in a “Christian book”. No Fluff. Seriously. And the best part – its only 99. cents for Kindle, Nook, iBooks, ect…
http://www.amazon.com/Through-Fury-Dawn-ebook/dp/B005ZJJP20/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324854885&sr=8-2
http://www.actionofpurpose.com
@ Mike – Thanks for getting this started. It’s definitely a topic that needs to be talked about.
Cheers!
This is amazingly right on.
The world may be surprised to read edgy books that refer to Christ as deliverer. However, they won’t even read Christian books because we have a reputation of writing vanilla–writing for a righteous Christian audience with vanilla problems. We ignore what the world is going through, their fears, anguishes, and lusts. The righteous don’t need entertainment. They need to get a jolt and realize what’s going on before their descendents completely turn from Christ.
Christians may be shocked to read the truth. But we can’t remain silent any longer. The only way Jesus and his disciples got through to some of his listeners is by straight speaking about murder, demons, incest, and other subjects Christians of today won’t even acknowledge. But Jesus and his disciples were blunt. They spoke of perpetual murder, sexual sins, witchcraft and the like to turn hearts from sin.
Instead we just go along with everything and turn it into vanilla. We need to speak boldly to the world. We need to touch them at the root of their sins.
So Mike, Any recommendation for getting a good audience for the real edge in Christian fiction?
Keep on keeping truth alive.
Pola
What publishers are more likely to consider subject matter and writing that pushes and possibly steps over the line of more traditional Christian? I know many are veering into the paranormal, a genre some readers/authors consider far from Christian. But what about other issues? I’m writing very candidly about abstinence–or rather the lack of it–and ‘second chance virginity’ among Christian teenagers in long-term relationships. And as it does in real life, abortion, birth control and STDs show up as well. Well-received by beta readers and critiques by Christian authors doesn’t mean a publisher will take a chance. Please don’t tell me self-publishing is the only chance! Okay, if that’s what you think, you can tell me…
Hey Mike,
When it comes to edgy, you have a clone — me. Both as a reader and as a writer, I agree that the traditional Christian PG worldview “is flat outta touch.” You nailed it when you pointed out “you can write a book ABOUT rape. You just can’t be explicit. You can write a book ABOUT a conflicted porn star. Just spare us the specifics.” So totally true.
I’m going to look more closely thru your body of work and pick one of your novels that speaks to me. Myself? After spending five years writing my “M. Duran-edgy” Christian novel, All of Me Wants All of You, I’ve just discovered the specific genre I was aiming for the whole time — and a soul mate to boot. Your sensibilities ring true, man.
Thanks for having the balls to put it so clearly into words.
It’s not strong horror without the profanity; you have to let them see the f**king bullethole and the dead with their eyes open gazing into the abyss. I wonder what the faith community would make of my guys over the year or even me for that matter because I was doing uncensored since 1997; the very first adult horror story I did at 19 I was addressing church burnings. When I was 23 I was addressing mental illness and eventually wrote about my nightmares and what not.
It’s not strong horror without the profanity; you have to let them see the fucking bullethole and the dead with their eyes open gazing into the abyss. I wonder what the faith community would make of my guys over the year or even me for that matter because I was doing uncensored since 1997; the very first adult horror story I did at 19 I was addressing church burnings. When I was 23 I was addressing mental illness and eventually wrote about my nightmares and what not.
Try the new 2015 edgy!
Edgychristianfiction.com
Or check out my cussing, drinking, Sex and the City meets God novel, Big Toe People on Amazon by Kristine Kohut.
Let me ask you this…why are you asking us to verify you’re obvious obsession with the profane? Have you become so flooded with the negative aspects of people’s lives in your ministry that you wish you could live like them? Why?
Isn’t your life that you have been blessed with good enough? Does thou covet thy neighbor’s suffering as some kind of self punishment? What have you done wrong? Would you want someone to write all those details out about you, or if your kids or spouse went through a horrible experience…would you want some fetish author describing it so detailed and crude? ….Jesus said “Speak the Truth Always, but speak it with love”
I don’t think over intense or overly detailed is loving towards the victim at all.
Definitely you shouldn’t avoid ever talking about ‘edgy’ subjects (The Bible does!), but I dislike any profanity when I’m reading a book or watching a movie. I think it desensitizes you, and can actually lead you to using that kind of language yourself.
I’m just now seeing this article years later.
I am an author of those “safe” Christian books and I agree they’re boring, but that’s what my publisher wants.
I spent 5 years shopping a Christian novel about a prostitute who falls in love with a minister. It talks about him being crushed to see her disappear with johns, it talks about her not knowing how to show affection without sex. Whey they do finally get married, it talks about what leads up to their first romantic encounter. As you noted, he stares, she touches – it’s not graphic, but married Christians have wonderful sex lives! What’s wrong with that?
Five years shopping it and every single agent and publisher has turned it down. It’s way too gritty for Christian, and it’s way too Christian to be secular. Overall it’s maddening for me.
The question is – how do we change this?